Discussion:
AK Dewdney is 911 conspiracy nut???
(too old to reply)
Lawson English
2003-09-07 05:13:34 UTC
Permalink
http://www.physics911.org/911/index.php

http://www.csd.uwo.ca/faculty/akd/PERSONAL/books_and_articles.html

Seems to be same guy. What gives?
Tim Howells
2003-09-07 12:03:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawson English
http://www.physics911.org/911/index.php
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/faculty/akd/PERSONAL/books_and_articles.html
Seems to be same guy. What gives?
Simple - Prof. Dewdney has the courage and integrity to
state what many others with similar qualifications believe
but do not dare say for political reasons.

Tim Howells
cLIeNUX user
2003-09-07 15:10:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Howells
Post by Lawson English
http://www.physics911.org/911/index.php
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/faculty/akd/PERSONAL/books_and_articles.html
Seems to be same guy. What gives?
Simple - Prof. Dewdney has the courage and integrity to
state what many others with similar qualifications believe
but do not dare say for political reasons.
Scientists must maintain thier credibility generally.

Rick Hohensee
Post by Tim Howells
Tim Howells
Lawson English
2003-09-07 20:32:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by cLIeNUX user
Post by Tim Howells
Post by Lawson English
http://www.physics911.org/911/index.php
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/faculty/akd/PERSONAL/books_and_articles.html
Seems to be same guy. What gives?
Simple - Prof. Dewdney has the courage and integrity to
state what many others with similar qualifications believe
but do not dare say for political reasons.
Scientists must maintain thier credibility generally.
9/11 is a political hot potato. Scientists have to stay alive *politically*,
in the first place, to maintain credibility and get funding. Dewdney is
retired so he doesn't have that worry. Even so, its interesting to see this
appear.

Certainly, I've seen enough evidence to believe that "Bush knew" that 9/11
was going to happen ahead of time, but that's not the same as claiming that
9/11 was actually *created* by our government, which is pretty much what
this site claims. There's a big difference between letting the Nazis bomb
Coventry to conceal that you have broken their code, and actually bombing
Coventry YOURSELF for some political gain.
Post by cLIeNUX user
Rick Hohensee
Post by Tim Howells
Tim Howells
cLIeNUX user
2003-09-08 05:28:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawson English
Post by cLIeNUX user
Post by Tim Howells
Post by Lawson English
http://www.physics911.org/911/index.php
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/faculty/akd/PERSONAL/books_and_articles.html
Seems to be same guy. What gives?
Simple - Prof. Dewdney has the courage and integrity to
state what many others with similar qualifications believe
but do not dare say for political reasons.
Scientists must maintain thier credibility generally.
9/11 is a political hot potato. Scientists have to stay alive *politically*,
in the first place, to maintain credibility and get funding. Dewdney is
retired so he doesn't have that worry. Even so, its interesting to see this
appear.
Certainly, I've seen enough evidence to believe that "Bush knew" that 9/11
was going to happen ahead of time, but that's not the same as claiming that
9/11 was actually *created* by our government, which is pretty much what
this site claims. There's a big difference between letting the Nazis bomb
Coventry to conceal that you have broken their code, and actually bombing
Coventry YOURSELF for some political gain.
My take on the whole 9-11 thing is simple negligence. NOBODY could have
dreamed how successful Al Qaeda were on 9-11. Sloppy police work leads to
more police work. It's simple bureacratic nest-feathering in a country
that rewards incompetance, but it's worse with police work, violent crime,
and much worse with genius terrorists. Bush would have been delighted
with, say, 30 dead. The still un-named "careerist" parasite in the FBI
that consistantly sabotaged the FBI investigation of the steering-only
flight students was conciously, deliberately making police work. Making
police work is called crime. 3000 murders. Nice little chunk of
negligence. That little bit of non-police work opened the door for our
retarded little Hitler wannabe to commit somewhat greater crimes in Iraq,
at a Bush family profit that will impoverish the country. The US.

My theories don't require that the perps comprehend thier action. That's
the problem with The Plan and so on. The Man ain't that smart. He's just
got thuggish habits that have worked for generations, and may think he's
the good guy. Most of the criminals on Judge Judy and so on don't think
they're at all in the wrong. Presumably Bush doesn't realize what he is
either. How could he?

What is different now versus 1963 or 1942 in the sordid history of the
Bush Crime Family is that we are clearly at a breaking point. Crime pays
the criminals quite well, but crime is parasitic, it's not productive.
When the parasites take over the host, it dies.

Rick Hohensee
Post by Lawson English
Post by cLIeNUX user
Rick Hohensee
Post by Tim Howells
Tim Howells
Richard Henry
2003-09-07 16:56:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Howells
Post by Lawson English
http://www.physics911.org/911/index.php
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/faculty/akd/PERSONAL/books_and_articles.html
Seems to be same guy. What gives?
Simple - Prof. Dewdney has the courage and integrity to
state what many others with similar qualifications believe
but do not dare say for political reasons.
Dewdney has written much on the mis-application of science. Perhaps another
book is coming?
mensanator
2003-09-07 19:50:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Howells
Post by Lawson English
http://www.physics911.org/911/index.php
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/faculty/akd/PERSONAL/books_and_articles.html
Seems to be same guy. What gives?
Simple - Prof. Dewdney has the courage and integrity to
Even simpler, Prof. Dewdney is a ghoul who's trying to use tragedy for
personal gain...
Post by Tim Howells
state what many others with similar qualifications believe
...by taking advantage of the simple minded.
Post by Tim Howells
but do not dare say for political reasons.
Tim Howells
Paul
2003-09-07 22:25:25 UTC
Permalink
i find it really hilarious that science has changed in the new millenium
steel used to have so much better qualities before the year 2000
Post by mensanator
Post by Tim Howells
Post by Lawson English
http://www.physics911.org/911/index.php
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/faculty/akd/PERSONAL/books_and_articles.html
Seems to be same guy. What gives?
Simple - Prof. Dewdney has the courage and integrity to
Even simpler, Prof. Dewdney is a ghoul who's trying to use tragedy for
personal gain...
Post by Tim Howells
state what many others with similar qualifications believe
...by taking advantage of the simple minded.
Post by Tim Howells
but do not dare say for political reasons.
Tim Howells
Lawson English
2003-09-07 22:42:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
i find it really hilarious that science has changed in the new millenium
steel used to have so much better qualities before the year 2000
I notice that no-one has actually attempted to refute what he says on his
web-site. This is bothersome. Even a URL to refutations would be comforting.

http://www.physics911.org/911/index.php

http://www.csd.uwo.ca/faculty/akd/PERSONAL/books_and_articles.html
Chip Eastham
2003-09-08 03:04:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawson English
Post by Paul
i find it really hilarious that science has changed in the new millenium
steel used to have so much better qualities before the year 2000
I notice that no-one has actually attempted to refute what he says on his
web-site. This is bothersome. Even a URL to refutations would be comforting.
http://www.physics911.org/911/index.php
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/faculty/akd/PERSONAL/books_and_articles.html
Hi, Lawson:

Cross-posting to so many groups is apt to diffuse any concentrated
effort at refutation on the part of many serious readers.

As Prof. Dewdney's own site indicates, his original theory of gov't.
complicity has undergone some important changes, and comments
from sites that have picked up his material suggest that further
revisions are in the works.

This is, of course, not to be held against Prof. Dewdney's honesty
in trying to find the factual truth in a matter where the government
and the mainstream media have clearly not provided critical analysis.

Yet it is at the least a complication to any refutation efforts that his
theory is currently a "moving target".

I'm indebted to you for having alerted me to his work, which I will
follow with interest.

regards, chip
Judy Stein
2003-09-08 04:47:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawson English
Post by Paul
i find it really hilarious that science has changed in the new millenium
steel used to have so much better qualities before the year 2000
I notice that no-one has actually attempted to refute what he says on his
web-site. This is bothersome. Even a URL to refutations would be comforting.
For anybody reading this who hasn't seen the site, he claims to
have done extensive tests and to have discovered that at the
height the hijacked planes were flying, the likelihood of a
cell phone call getting through is just about nil.

If that's true, it's a *very* difficult fact to incorporate
into the official story. What I don't understand is why it
didn't come up almost right away from any number of different
sources. Surely many people have tried to make cell phone
calls in flight.

On the other hand, if there were no cell phone calls, it means
there would have had to have been a truly *massive* conspiracy.
The more people involved in a purported conspiracy, the less
likely it is to stay secret.
Post by Lawson English
http://www.physics911.org/911/index.php
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/faculty/akd/PERSONAL/books_and_articles.html
Rich Andrews
2003-09-08 05:23:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judy Stein
Post by Lawson English
Post by Paul
i find it really hilarious that science has changed in the new millenium
steel used to have so much better qualities before the year 2000
I notice that no-one has actually attempted to refute what he says on his
web-site. This is bothersome. Even a URL to refutations would be comforting.
For anybody reading this who hasn't seen the site, he claims to
have done extensive tests and to have discovered that at the
height the hijacked planes were flying, the likelihood of a
cell phone call getting through is just about nil.
If that's true, it's a *very* difficult fact to incorporate
into the official story. What I don't understand is why it
didn't come up almost right away from any number of different
sources. Surely many people have tried to make cell phone
calls in flight.
On the other hand, if there were no cell phone calls, it means
there would have had to have been a truly *massive* conspiracy.
The more people involved in a purported conspiracy, the less
likely it is to stay secret.
Post by Lawson English
http://www.physics911.org/911/index.php
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/faculty/akd/PERSONAL/books_and_articles.html
I have made a few cell phone calls in flight and it works remarkably well
except over those areas that have no cell sites like the flight path over
rural N.M. However, I cannot recall what the altitude was during those
calls.

r
--
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from
magic."

Arthur C. Clarke (1917 - ), "Technology and the Future"
Lawson English
2003-09-08 05:28:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judy Stein
Post by Lawson English
Post by Paul
i find it really hilarious that science has changed in the new millenium
steel used to have so much better qualities before the year 2000
I notice that no-one has actually attempted to refute what he says on his
web-site. This is bothersome. Even a URL to refutations would be comforting.
For anybody reading this who hasn't seen the site, he claims to
have done extensive tests and to have discovered that at the
height the hijacked planes were flying, the likelihood of a
cell phone call getting through is just about nil.
A pretty good discussion below. The short answer is: maybe.

http://answers.google.com/answers/main?cmd=threadview&id=250959

Safety issues apparently aren't the problem though:

http://www.scn.org/~bk269/itssafe.html
Post by Judy Stein
If that's true, it's a *very* difficult fact to incorporate
into the official story. What I don't understand is why it
didn't come up almost right away from any number of different
sources. Surely many people have tried to make cell phone
calls in flight.
On the other hand, if there were no cell phone calls, it means
there would have had to have been a truly *massive* conspiracy.
The more people involved in a purported conspiracy, the less
likely it is to stay secret.
How long has it taken to find out what Bush was told on August 6, 2001?
Condi Rice says it was an historical briefing on Al-Queda's methods.

Of course, the title turned out to be: "Bin Laden Determined to Strike the
United States" and we STILL don't know what he was told.

For what its worth, I favor the Coventry scenario where they (the neocons
running the Bush Administration) just stepped aside to allow the conditions
for the two current wars that we're fighting (Afghanistan isn't over
either), rather than a massive conspiracy to create the conditions.
Post by Judy Stein
Post by Lawson English
http://www.physics911.org/911/index.php
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/faculty/akd/PERSONAL/books_and_articles.html
m***@cars3.uchicago.edu
2003-09-08 05:39:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
Post by Judy Stein
Post by Lawson English
Post by Paul
i find it really hilarious that science has changed in the new
millenium
Post by Judy Stein
Post by Lawson English
Post by Paul
steel used to have so much better qualities before the year 2000
I notice that no-one has actually attempted to refute what he says on
his
Post by Judy Stein
Post by Lawson English
web-site. This is bothersome. Even a URL to refutations would be
comforting.
Post by Judy Stein
For anybody reading this who hasn't seen the site, he claims to
have done extensive tests and to have discovered that at the
height the hijacked planes were flying, the likelihood of a
cell phone call getting through is just about nil.
A pretty good discussion below. The short answer is: maybe.
http://answers.google.com/answers/main?cmd=threadview&id=250959
http://www.scn.org/~bk269/itssafe.html
Post by Judy Stein
If that's true, it's a *very* difficult fact to incorporate
into the official story. What I don't understand is why it
didn't come up almost right away from any number of different
sources. Surely many people have tried to make cell phone
calls in flight.
On the other hand, if there were no cell phone calls, it means
there would have had to have been a truly *massive* conspiracy.
The more people involved in a purported conspiracy, the less
likely it is to stay secret.
How long has it taken to find out what Bush was told on August 6, 2001?
Condi Rice says it was an historical briefing on Al-Queda's methods.
Of course, the title turned out to be: "Bin Laden Determined to Strike the
United States" and we STILL don't know what he was told.
For what its worth, I favor the Coventry scenario where they (the neocons
running the Bush Administration) just stepped aside to allow the conditions
for the two current wars that we're fighting (Afghanistan isn't over
either), rather than a massive conspiracy to create the conditions.
Aha. And, no doubt, the neocons were powerful enough to influence the
decisions of the previous administration (Clinton's) and prevent it
from taking any effective action against Al-Queda. No doubt, once
they got to power, they used their top secret neocon time machine to
take over previous administrations, right?:-)

I did suspect, for quite a while, that you're a moron. By now, the
suspicion turned into certainty. So long.

Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
***@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"
Lawson English
2003-09-08 06:18:50 UTC
Permalink
<***@cars3.uchicago.edu> wrote in message news:cCU6b.14$***@news.uchicago.edu...
[...]
Post by m***@cars3.uchicago.edu
Aha. And, no doubt, the neocons were powerful enough to influence the
decisions of the previous administration (Clinton's) and prevent it
from taking any effective action against Al-Queda. No doubt, once
they got to power, they used their top secret neocon time machine to
take over previous administrations, right?:-)
What effective action did you want?
Post by m***@cars3.uchicago.edu
I did suspect, for quite a while, that you're a moron. By now, the
suspicion turned into certainty. So long.
http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0124/ridgeway.php

Posted June 6, 2001
Mondo Washington
Richard Helms's Afghani Niece Leads Corps of Taliban Reps
The Accidental Operative
by Camelia Fard & James Ridgeway

[...]

Early this year, the Taliban's ambassador at large, Hashami, a young man
speaking perfect English, met with CIA operations people and State
Department reps, Helms says. At this final meeting, she says, Hashami
proposed that the Taliban hold bin Laden in one location long enough for the
U.S. to locate and destroy him. The U.S. refused, says Helms, who claims she
was the go-between in this deal between the supreme leader and the feds.
Judy Stein
2003-09-08 18:10:27 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by m***@cars3.uchicago.edu
Post by Lawson English
For what its worth, I favor the Coventry scenario where they (the neocons
running the Bush Administration) just stepped aside to allow the conditions
for the two current wars that we're fighting (Afghanistan isn't over
either), rather than a massive conspiracy to create the conditions.
Aha. And, no doubt, the neocons were powerful enough to influence the
decisions of the previous administration (Clinton's) and prevent it
from taking any effective action against Al-Queda. No doubt, once
they got to power, they used their top secret neocon time machine to
take over previous administrations, right?:-)
I did suspect, for quite a while, that you're a moron. By now, the
suspicion turned into certainty. So long.
Right. Put a moronic argument in someone's mouth that he never
proposed, then declare him a moron. Gosh, you must be really,
really smart by comparison.
Judy Stein
2003-09-08 18:07:40 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by Lawson English
Post by Judy Stein
If that's true, it's a *very* difficult fact to incorporate
into the official story. What I don't understand is why it
didn't come up almost right away from any number of different
sources. Surely many people have tried to make cell phone
calls in flight.
On the other hand, if there were no cell phone calls, it means
there would have had to have been a truly *massive* conspiracy.
The more people involved in a purported conspiracy, the less
likely it is to stay secret.
How long has it taken to find out what Bush was told on August 6, 2001?
Condi Rice says it was an historical briefing on Al-Queda's methods.
Of course, the title turned out to be: "Bin Laden Determined to Strike the
United States" and we STILL don't know what he was told.
Many fewer people involved, though, and at higher levels, than
would have had to be involved in perpetrating a fraudulent
story about cell phone calls. And again, why haven't *ordinary
people* spoken up if it's such a patently unlikely scenario?
Post by Lawson English
For what its worth, I favor the Coventry scenario where they (the neocons
running the Bush Administration) just stepped aside to allow the conditions
for the two current wars that we're fighting (Afghanistan isn't over
either), rather than a massive conspiracy to create the conditions.
Me too. But I sure would like to have the cell phone thing
explained definitively.
Judy Stein
2003-09-09 04:16:23 UTC
Permalink
"Lawson English" <***@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:<JrU6b.3303$***@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
<snip>
Post by Lawson English
For what its worth, I favor the Coventry scenario where they (the neocons
running the Bush Administration) just stepped aside to allow the conditions
for the two current wars that we're fighting (Afghanistan isn't over
either), rather than a massive conspiracy to create the conditions.
The following article was written by the former UK environment
minister and MP after his resignation in June 2003. It reflects
my sense ofwhat happened.

Needless to say, the article, which essentially accuses the Bush
administration of treason, has not been reported in the U.S.
It's caused something of a furor in the U.K.

This war on terrorism is bogus
The 9/11 attacks gave the US an ideal pretext to use force to secure
its global domination

Michael Meacher
Saturday September 6, 2003
The Guardian

Massive attention has now been given - and rightly so - to the reasons
why Britain went to war against Iraq. But far too little attention has
focused on why the US went to war, and that throws light on British
motives too. The conventional explanation is that after the Twin
Towers were hit, retaliation against al-Qaida bases in Afghanistan was
a natural first step in launching a global war against terrorism.
Then, because Saddam Hussein was alleged by the US and UK governments
to retain weapons of mass destruction, the war could be extended to
Iraq as well. However this theory does not fit all the facts. The
truth may be a great deal murkier.

We now know that a blueprint for the creation of a global Pax
Americana was drawn up for Dick Cheney (now vice-president), Donald
Rumsfeld (defence secretary), Paul Wolfowitz (Rumsfeld's deputy), Jeb
Bush (George Bush's younger brother) and Lewis Libby (Cheney's chief
of staff). The document, entitled Rebuilding America's Defences, was
written in September 2000 by the neoconservative think tank, Project
for the New American Century (PNAC).

The plan shows Bush's cabinet intended to take military control of the
Gulf region whether or not Saddam Hussein was in power. It says "while
the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate
justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in
the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein."

The PNAC blueprint supports an earlier document attributed to
Wolfowitz and Libby which said the US must "discourage advanced
industrial nations from challenging our leadership or even aspiring to
a larger regional or global role". It refers to key allies such as the
UK as "the most effective and efficient means of exercising American
global leadership". It describes peacekeeping missions as "demanding
American political leadership rather than that of the UN". It says
"even should Saddam pass from the scene", US bases in Saudi Arabia and
Kuwait will remain permanently... as "Iran may well prove as large a
threat to US interests as Iraq has". It spotlights China for "regime
change", saying "it is time to increase the presence of American
forces in SE Asia".

The document also calls for the creation of "US space forces" to
dominate space, and the total control of cyberspace to prevent
"enemies" using the internet against the US. It also hints that the US
may consider developing biological weapons "that can target specific
genotypes [and] may transform biological warfare from the realm of
terror to a politically useful tool".

Finally - written a year before 9/11 - it pinpoints North Korea, Syria
and Iran as dangerous regimes, and says their existence justifies the
creation of a "worldwide command and control system". This is a
blueprint for US world domination. But before it is dismissed as an
agenda for rightwing fantasists, it is clear it provides a much better
explanation of what actually happened before, during and after 9/11
than the global war on terrorism thesis. This can be seen in several
ways.

First, it is clear the US authorities did little or nothing to
pre-empt the events of 9/11. It is known that at least 11 countries
provided advance warning to the US of the 9/11 attacks. Two senior
Mossad experts were sent to Washington in August 2001 to alert the CIA
and FBI to a cell of 200 terrorists said to be preparing a big
operation (Daily Telegraph, September 16 2001). The list they provided
included the names of four of the 9/11 hijackers, none of whom was
arrested.

It had been known as early as 1996 that there were plans to hit
Washington targets with aeroplanes. Then in 1999 a US national
intelligence council report noted that "al-Qaida suicide bombers could
crash-land an aircraft packed with high explosives into the Pentagon,
the headquarters of the CIA, or the White House".

Fifteen of the 9/11 hijackers obtained their visas in Saudi Arabia.
Michael Springman, the former head of the American visa bureau in
Jeddah, has stated that since 1987 the CIA had been illicitly issuing
visas to unqualified applicants from the Middle East and bringing them
to the US for training in terrorism for the Afghan war in
collaboration with Bin Laden (BBC, November 6 2001). It seems this
operation continued after the Afghan war for other purposes. It is
also reported that five of the hijackers received training at secure
US military installations in the 1990s (Newsweek, September 15 2001).

Instructive leads prior to 9/11 were not followed up. French Moroccan
flight student Zacarias Moussaoui (now thought to be the 20th
hijacker) was arrested in August 2001 after an instructor reported he
showed a suspicious interest in learning how to steer large airliners.
When US agents learned from French intelligence he had radical
Islamist ties, they sought a warrant to search his computer, which
contained clues to the September 11 mission (Times, November 3 2001).
But they were turned down by the FBI. One agent wrote, a month before
9/11, that Moussaoui might be planning to crash into the Twin Towers
(Newsweek, May 20 2002).

All of this makes it all the more astonishing - on the war on
terrorism perspective - that there was such slow reaction on September
11 itself. The first hijacking was suspected at not later than 8.20am,
and the last hijacked aircraft crashed in Pennsylvania at 10.06am. Not
a single fighter plane was scrambled to investigate from the US
Andrews airforce base, just 10 miles from Washington DC, until after
the third plane had hit the Pentagon at 9.38 am. Why not? There were
standard FAA intercept procedures for hijacked aircraft before 9/11.
Between September 2000 and June 2001 the US military launched fighter
aircraft on 67 occasions to chase suspicious aircraft (AP, August 13
2002). It is a US legal requirement that once an aircraft has moved
significantly off its flight plan, fighter planes are sent up to
investigate.

Was this inaction simply the result of key people disregarding, or
being ignorant of, the evidence? Or could US air security operations
have been deliberately stood down on September 11? If so, why, and on
whose authority? The former US federal crimes prosecutor, John Loftus,
has said: "The information provided by European intelligence services
prior to 9/11 was so extensive that it is no longer possible for
either the CIA or FBI to assert a defence of incompetence."

Nor is the US response after 9/11 any better. No serious attempt has
ever been made to catch Bin Laden. In late September and early October
2001, leaders of Pakistan's two Islamist parties negotiated Bin
Laden's extradition to Pakistan to stand trial for 9/11. However, a US
official said, significantly, that "casting our objectives too
narrowly" risked "a premature collapse of the international effort if
by some lucky chance Mr Bin Laden was captured". The US chairman of
the joint chiefs of staff, General Myers, went so far as to say that
"the goal has never been to get Bin Laden" (AP, April 5 2002). The
whistleblowing FBI agent Robert Wright told ABC News (December 19
2002) that FBI headquarters wanted no arrests. And in November 2001
the US airforce complained it had had al-Qaida and Taliban leaders in
its sights as many as 10 times over the previous six weeks, but had
been unable to attack because they did not receive permission quickly
enough (Time Magazine, May 13 2002). None of this assembled evidence,
all of which comes from sources already in the public domain, is
compatible with the idea of a real, determined war on terrorism.

The catalogue of evidence does, however, fall into place when set
against the PNAC blueprint. From this it seems that the so-called "war
on terrorism" is being used largely as bogus cover for achieving wider
US strategic geopolitical objectives. Indeed Tony Blair himself hinted
at this when he said to the Commons liaison committee: "To be truthful
about it, there was no way we could have got the public consent to
have suddenly launched a campaign on Afghanistan but for what happened
on September 11" (Times, July 17 2002). Similarly Rumsfeld was so
determined to obtain a rationale for an attack on Iraq that on 10
separate occasions he asked the CIA to find evidence linking Iraq to
9/11; the CIA repeatedly came back empty-handed (Time Magazine, May 13
2002).

In fact, 9/11 offered an extremely convenient pretext to put the PNAC
plan into action. The evidence again is quite clear that plans for
military action against Afghanistan and Iraq were in hand well before
9/11. A report prepared for the US government from the Baker Institute
of Public Policy stated in April 2001 that "the US remains a prisoner
of its energy dilemma. Iraq remains a destabilising influence to...
the flow of oil to international markets from the Middle East".
Submitted to Vice-President Cheney's energy task group, the report
recommended that because this was an unacceptable risk to the US,
"military intervention" was necessary (Sunday Herald, October 6 2002).

Similar evidence exists in regard to Afghanistan. The BBC reported
(September 18 2001) that Niaz Niak, a former Pakistan foreign
secretary, was told by senior American officials at a meeting in
Berlin in mid-July 2001 that "military action against Afghanistan
would go ahead by the middle of October". Until July 2001 the US
government saw the Taliban regime as a source of stability in Central
Asia that would enable the construction of hydrocarbon pipelines from
the oil and gas fields in Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan,
through Afghanistan and Pakistan, to the Indian Ocean. But, confronted
with the Taliban's refusal to accept US conditions, the US
representatives told them "either you accept our offer of a carpet of
gold, or we bury you under a carpet of bombs" (Inter Press Service,
November 15 2001).

Given this background, it is not surprising that some have seen the US
failure to avert the 9/11 attacks as creating an invaluable pretext
for attacking Afghanistan in a war that had clearly already been well
planned in advance. There is a possible precedent for this. The US
national archives reveal that President Roosevelt used exactly this
approach in relation to Pearl Harbor on December 7 1941. Some advance
warning of the attacks was received, but the information never reached
the US fleet. The ensuing national outrage persuaded a reluctant US
public to join the second world war. Similarly the PNAC blueprint of
September 2000 states that the process of transforming the US into
"tomorrow's dominant force" is likely to be a long one in the absence
of "some catastrophic and catalyzing event - like a new Pearl Harbor".
The 9/11 attacks allowed the US to press the "go" button for a
strategy in accordance with the PNAC agenda which it would otherwise
have been politically impossible to implement.

The overriding motivation for this political smokescreen is that the
US and the UK are beginning to run out of secure hydrocarbon energy
supplies. By 2010 the Muslim world will control as much as 60% of the
world's oil production and, even more importantly, 95% of remaining
global oil export capacity. As demand is increasing, so supply is
decreasing, continually since the 1960s.

This is leading to increasing dependence on foreign oil supplies for
both the US and the UK. The US, which in 1990 produced domestically
57% of its total energy demand, is predicted to produce only 39% of
its needs by 2010. A DTI minister has admitted that the UK could be
facing "severe" gas shortages by 2005. The UK government has confirmed
that 70% of our electricity will come from gas by 2020, and 90% of
that will be imported. In that context it should be noted that Iraq
has 110 trillion cubic feet of gas reserves in addition to its oil.

A report from the commission on America's national interests in July
2000 noted that the most promising new source of world supplies was
the Caspian region, and this would relieve US dependence on Saudi
Arabia. To diversify supply routes from the Caspian, one pipeline
would run westward via Azerbaijan and Georgia to the Turkish port of
Ceyhan. Another would extend eastwards through Afghanistan and
Pakistan and terminate near the Indian border. This would rescue
Enron's beleaguered power plant at Dabhol on India's west coast, in
which Enron had sunk $3bn investment and whose economic survival was
dependent on access to cheap gas.

Nor has the UK been disinterested in this scramble for the remaining
world supplies of hydrocarbons, and this may partly explain British
participation in US military actions. Lord Browne, chief executive of
BP, warned Washington not to carve up Iraq for its own oil companies
in the aftermath of war (Guardian, October 30 2002). And when a
British foreign minister met Gadaffi in his desert tent in August
2002, it was said that "the UK does not want to lose out to other
European nations already jostling for advantage when it comes to
potentially lucrative oil contracts" with Libya (BBC Online, August 10
2002).

The conclusion of all this analysis must surely be that the "global
war on terrorism" has the hallmarks of a political myth propagated to
pave the way for a wholly different agenda - the US goal of world
hegemony, built around securing by force command over the oil supplies
required to drive the whole project. Is collusion in this myth and
junior participation in this project really a proper aspiration for
British foreign policy? If there was ever need to justify a more
objective British stance, driven by our own independent goals, this
whole depressing saga surely provides all the evidence needed for a
radical change of course.

· Michael Meacher MP was environment minister from May 1997 to June
2003

***@parliament.uk

Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2003 >

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4747953-110340,00.html
Richard Tobin
2003-09-09 12:38:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judy Stein
The following article was written by the former UK environment
minister and MP after his resignation in June 2003. It reflects
my sense ofwhat happened.
You might also want to read

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1038215,00.html

-- Richard
--
Spam filter: to mail me from a .com/.net site, put my surname in the headers.

FreeBSD rules!
PeteM
2003-09-09 21:02:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Judy Stein
The following article was written by the former UK environment
minister and MP after his resignation in June 2003. It reflects
my sense ofwhat happened.
You might also want to read
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1038215,00.html
Yes, I read it. David Aaronovitch is just a columnist, no better
informed than you and I - less well informed in many respects. Meacher
is a former Cabinet minister in Tony Blair's government.
--
PeteM
Richard Tobin
2003-09-09 22:33:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by PeteM
Yes, I read it. David Aaronovitch is just a columnist, no better
informed than you and I - less well informed in many respects. Meacher
is a former Cabinet minister in Tony Blair's government.
So what parts of Michael Meacher's theory did he support with
information only available to ministers? None as far as I could see.

His ministerial experience might give him an insight into, say, Tony
Blair's motivation for supporting George W Bush, but I don't see any
evidence that he has specific information about the terrorist attacks
that is not in the public domain.

Your argument from authority seems unfounded.

I like Michael Meacher and agree with him about many things, but he
seems to have fallen for the conspiracy theories this time.

-- Richard
--
Spam filter: to mail me from a .com/.net site, put my surname in the headers.

FreeBSD rules!
PeteM
2003-09-10 08:15:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by PeteM
Yes, I read it. David Aaronovitch is just a columnist, no better
informed than you and I - less well informed in many respects. Meacher
is a former Cabinet minister in Tony Blair's government.
So what parts of Michael Meacher's theory did he support with
information only available to ministers? None as far as I could see.
That's correct; he was repeating opinions we have all read on Internet
sources for some time. See below.
Post by Richard Tobin
His ministerial experience might give him an insight into, say, Tony
Blair's motivation for supporting George W Bush, but I don't see any
evidence that he has specific information about the terrorist attacks
that is not in the public domain.
Your argument from authority seems unfounded.
It's not an argument from authority. The significance of his article is
that it counters one of the main rhetorical methods used by the
political establishment for dismissing so-called "conspiracy theories" -
the method of linking them exclusively to "outsiders".

In effect, this trick claims that "conspiracy theories" are believed
only by nutters who don't understand how politics is really done or how
politicians really think.

But Meacher is very well informed about how politics works and how his
fellow politicians think. He has done it himself for six years at a high
level and worked closely with Blair, Straw and the others. He is not an
outsider or a nutter. His opinions cannot therefore be dismissed using
that rhetoric.
--
PeteM
Judy Stein
2003-09-10 13:18:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by PeteM
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by PeteM
Yes, I read it. David Aaronovitch is just a columnist, no better
informed than you and I - less well informed in many respects. Meacher
is a former Cabinet minister in Tony Blair's government.
So what parts of Michael Meacher's theory did he support with
information only available to ministers? None as far as I could see.
That's correct; he was repeating opinions we have all read on Internet
sources for some time. See below.
Post by Richard Tobin
His ministerial experience might give him an insight into, say, Tony
Blair's motivation for supporting George W Bush, but I don't see any
evidence that he has specific information about the terrorist attacks
that is not in the public domain.
Your argument from authority seems unfounded.
It's not an argument from authority. The significance of his article is
that it counters one of the main rhetorical methods used by the
political establishment for dismissing so-called "conspiracy theories" -
the method of linking them exclusively to "outsiders".
In effect, this trick claims that "conspiracy theories" are believed
only by nutters who don't understand how politics is really done or how
politicians really think.
But Meacher is very well informed about how politics works and how his
fellow politicians think. He has done it himself for six years at a high
level and worked closely with Blair, Straw and the others. He is not an
outsider or a nutter. His opinions cannot therefore be dismissed using
that rhetoric.
Just to quibble a bit, this *verges* on an argument from
authority, in that he is presumably to be accorded more
credibility than your average nutter because of his position,
if not his expertise. If that's not technically considered
"authority," there ought to be another category for it in
the list of fallacious arguments, on the same grounds:
nonnutters can be wrong just as authorities can.

Otherwise, you're quite right. The significance of the article
is not that it involved privileged information or special expertise,
but rather that it appeared in a major publication and was written by
an individual respectable enough to have held a leadership
position in government.
Back by popular demand
2003-09-10 15:44:11 UTC
Permalink
Saw a documentary on 9-11 on PBS yesterday. Well worth watching. While
they did not talk about the cell phone conspiracy, I do believe the answer
was given as well as the answer as to who downed the plane in PA
Post by Judy Stein
Post by PeteM
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by PeteM
Yes, I read it. David Aaronovitch is just a columnist, no better
informed than you and I - less well informed in many respects. Meacher
is a former Cabinet minister in Tony Blair's government.
So what parts of Michael Meacher's theory did he support with
information only available to ministers? None as far as I could see.
That's correct; he was repeating opinions we have all read on Internet
sources for some time. See below.
Post by Richard Tobin
His ministerial experience might give him an insight into, say, Tony
Blair's motivation for supporting George W Bush, but I don't see any
evidence that he has specific information about the terrorist attacks
that is not in the public domain.
Your argument from authority seems unfounded.
It's not an argument from authority. The significance of his article is
that it counters one of the main rhetorical methods used by the
political establishment for dismissing so-called "conspiracy theories" -
the method of linking them exclusively to "outsiders".
In effect, this trick claims that "conspiracy theories" are believed
only by nutters who don't understand how politics is really done or how
politicians really think.
But Meacher is very well informed about how politics works and how his
fellow politicians think. He has done it himself for six years at a high
level and worked closely with Blair, Straw and the others. He is not an
outsider or a nutter. His opinions cannot therefore be dismissed using
that rhetoric.
Just to quibble a bit, this *verges* on an argument from
authority, in that he is presumably to be accorded more
credibility than your average nutter because of his position,
if not his expertise. If that's not technically considered
"authority," there ought to be another category for it in
nonnutters can be wrong just as authorities can.
Otherwise, you're quite right. The significance of the article
is not that it involved privileged information or special expertise,
but rather that it appeared in a major publication and was written by
an individual respectable enough to have held a leadership
position in government.
PeteM
2003-09-10 16:54:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judy Stein
Post by PeteM
Post by Richard Tobin
Your argument from authority seems unfounded.
It's not an argument from authority. The significance of his article is
that it counters one of the main rhetorical methods used by the
political establishment for dismissing so-called "conspiracy theories" -
the method of linking them exclusively to "outsiders".
In effect, this trick claims that "conspiracy theories" are believed
only by nutters who don't understand how politics is really done or how
politicians really think.
But Meacher is very well informed about how politics works and how his
fellow politicians think. He has done it himself for six years at a high
level and worked closely with Blair, Straw and the others. He is not an
outsider or a nutter. His opinions cannot therefore be dismissed using
that rhetoric.
Just to quibble a bit, this *verges* on an argument from
authority, in that he is presumably to be accorded more
credibility than your average nutter because of his position,
if not his expertise. If that's not technically considered
"authority," there ought to be another category for it in
nonnutters can be wrong just as authorities can.
Agreed. It belongs to the same family as ad verecundiam, in that it
addresses the source of a statement, rather than the factual or logical
substance of the argument itself.

However, it's not quite the same. Ad verecundiam would claim "This
argument is correct because big shot Meacher says it is correct".

I don't assert that. Instead I claim "You can't rebut theory X about
9-11 on the basis that only the loony fringe believes it, because
Meacher asserts it, and he was until recently a member of Blair's
government and so is not a member of the loony fringe".

I suppose a purist logician in my place would have said, "Please do not
try to rebut theory X about 9/11 on the grounds that only the loony
fringe believe it. That's an ad hominem argument, recognised as a
fallacy since antiquity. It doesn't matter whether an argument is
asserted by a loony or by a government minister. To rebut it you must
address the actual facts and inferences stated in the argument itself,
not its author".

However that would be too optimistic a standpoint :-)
--
PeteM
Judy Stein
2003-09-10 23:21:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by PeteM
Post by Judy Stein
Post by PeteM
Post by Richard Tobin
Your argument from authority seems unfounded.
It's not an argument from authority. The significance of his article is
that it counters one of the main rhetorical methods used by the
political establishment for dismissing so-called "conspiracy theories" -
the method of linking them exclusively to "outsiders".
In effect, this trick claims that "conspiracy theories" are believed
only by nutters who don't understand how politics is really done or how
politicians really think.
But Meacher is very well informed about how politics works and how his
fellow politicians think. He has done it himself for six years at a high
level and worked closely with Blair, Straw and the others. He is not an
outsider or a nutter. His opinions cannot therefore be dismissed using
that rhetoric.
Just to quibble a bit, this *verges* on an argument from
authority, in that he is presumably to be accorded more
credibility than your average nutter because of his position,
if not his expertise. If that's not technically considered
"authority," there ought to be another category for it in
nonnutters can be wrong just as authorities can.
Agreed. It belongs to the same family as ad verecundiam, in that it
addresses the source of a statement, rather than the factual or logical
substance of the argument itself.
However, it's not quite the same. Ad verecundiam would claim "This
argument is correct because big shot Meacher says it is correct".
I don't assert that. Instead I claim "You can't rebut theory X about
9-11 on the basis that only the loony fringe believes it, because
Meacher asserts it, and he was until recently a member of Blair's
government and so is not a member of the loony fringe".
OK, but you claim some expertise in politics for him, suggesting
that the loony fringe believes conspiracy theories because they
don't understand how politics works, whereas he must believe this
particular theory on the basis of an understanding of politics.

Presumably that means he would know, for instance, what kinds of
conspiracies by politicians are possible to implement and what
kinds are not. So your argument doesn't just dispose of the
"loony fringe" rebuttal, it actually lends him some additional
credibility as well.

I'm really just quibbling. I do understand your point
Post by PeteM
I suppose a purist logician in my place would have said, "Please do not
try to rebut theory X about 9/11 on the grounds that only the loony
fringe believe it. That's an ad hominem argument, recognised as a
fallacy since antiquity. It doesn't matter whether an argument is
asserted by a loony or by a government minister. To rebut it you must
address the actual facts and inferences stated in the argument itself,
not its author".
However that would be too optimistic a standpoint :-)
Indeed...
Henry
2003-09-09 22:40:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by PeteM
Post by Richard Tobin
You might also want to read
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1038215,00.html
Yes, I read it. David Aaronovitch is just a columnist, no better
informed than you and I - less well informed in many respects. Meacher
is a former Cabinet minister in Tony Blair's government.
Just to be pedantic, Michael Meacher was never in Blair's cabinet.
Nor has he claimed that any of the information for his article came
from information he got in Government.
Judy Stein
2003-09-09 21:52:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Judy Stein
The following article was written by the former UK environment
minister and MP after his resignation in June 2003. It reflects
my sense ofwhat happened.
You might also want to read
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1038215,00.html
This sort of nibbles around the edges and makes a few good small
points on the details, but it certainly doesn't rebut Meacham's
overall thesis.

And the writer's grasp of the details of when planes were
scrambled is, to say the least, not complete. For example,
flight controllers had decided the first plane had been
hijacked by 8:20, yet NORAD wasn't notified until more than
20 minutes later. Had NORAD been notified promptly, the
fighters could have reached New York in time to intercept
the second plane.

There's a scrupulously documented timeline of these events at
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/main/essayairdefense.html
(scroll down to "The Morning of September 11, 2001").

Meacham doesn't mention a point that was made by one of the
9/11 family members. If the Bush administration had let the
U.S. know that it had received warnings there were going to be
hijackings and that the hijacked planes might attack buildings,
after the first plane hit the first tower, there would have been
no indecision as to whether to evacuate the second tower, and
most people would have been either out or safely below the impact
zone when the second plane struck; everyone who could walk would
have been out before the tower collapsed.

But it was assumed by many of the people in the second building
that the first plane had struck the tower by accident, so there
was no good reason to evacuate; indeed, they thought they'd be
safer staying put.
Post by Richard Tobin
-- Richard
Bobby D. Bryant
2003-09-13 23:34:47 UTC
Permalink
Meacham doesn't mention a point that was made by one of the 9/11 family
members. If the Bush administration had let the U.S. know that it had
received warnings there were going to be hijackings and that the
hijacked planes might attack buildings, after the first plane hit the
first tower, there would have been no indecision as to whether to
evacuate the second tower, and most people would have been either out or
safely below the impact zone when the second plane struck; everyone who
could walk would have been out before the tower collapsed.
I find that odd even if there _wasn't_ any prior warning. Supposedly that
was the first time we've ever had more than one hijacking working
simultaneously, and then we had not two but _four_, so it shouldn't have
taken an egghead to grok that something big was up. The instant we had a
report of an airplane striking the WTC while four hijackings were in
progress we should have evacuated not only the second tower but every
other skyscraper and major public building in the country.

Of course, "Don't attribute to malice what can be explained by...", so
it's not obvious that the best explanation must invoke any conspiracy.

There's also the one about barn doors and absent cows... I can't help but
wonder whether all the new unconstitutional laws, massive bureaucratic
upgrades, and piles of cash have made a quick, sensible response more
likely next time, or whether they have merely ensured that confusion will
reign on a grander scale than before.
--
Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas
Lawson English
2003-09-14 04:14:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bobby D. Bryant
Meacham doesn't mention a point that was made by one of the 9/11 family
members. If the Bush administration had let the U.S. know that it had
received warnings there were going to be hijackings and that the
hijacked planes might attack buildings, after the first plane hit the
first tower, there would have been no indecision as to whether to
evacuate the second tower, and most people would have been either out or
safely below the impact zone when the second plane struck; everyone who
could walk would have been out before the tower collapsed.
I find that odd even if there _wasn't_ any prior warning. Supposedly that
was the first time we've ever had more than one hijacking working
simultaneously, and then we had not two but _four_, so it shouldn't have
taken an egghead to grok that something big was up. The instant we had a
report of an airplane striking the WTC while four hijackings were in
progress we should have evacuated not only the second tower but every
other skyscraper and major public building in the country.
Of course, "Don't attribute to malice what can be explained by...", so
it's not obvious that the best explanation must invoke any conspiracy.
There's also the one about barn doors and absent cows... I can't help but
wonder whether all the new unconstitutional laws, massive bureaucratic
upgrades, and piles of cash have made a quick, sensible response more
likely next time, or whether they have merely ensured that confusion will
reign on a grander scale than before.
Since most of this stuff (PATRIOT Act, etc) was the stuff of wet dreams for
the PNAC contributors for many years, I don't think you can draw any
positive conclusions about how responsive we would be to any new attack. The
provisions of the PATRIOT Act weren't really meant to stop terrorist
attacks. If you were interested in THAT, you'd follow the recommendations of
the Gore Committee on Terrorism from the Clinton Administration. Of course,
the Republicans at that time decried the Clinton Administration for being
too extreme in their proposals. The guy in charge of Iraq currently,
appointed by Bush no less, said that Clinton was too obsessed with OBL, but
obviously, post-9/11, its obvious that he wasn't obsessed enough. Unlike
Bush, Cheney and company who dismantled many of Clinton's anti-OBL actions
AND refused to attack OBL when the Taliban offered him to the USA in March
of 2001.

Paul R. Mays
2003-09-08 05:56:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judy Stein
Post by Lawson English
Post by Paul
i find it really hilarious that science has changed in the new millenium
steel used to have so much better qualities before the year 2000
I notice that no-one has actually attempted to refute what he says on his
web-site. This is bothersome. Even a URL to refutations would be comforting.
For anybody reading this who hasn't seen the site, he claims to
have done extensive tests and to have discovered that at the
height the hijacked planes were flying, the likelihood of a
cell phone call getting through is just about nil.
If that's true, it's a *very* difficult fact to incorporate
into the official story. What I don't understand is why it
didn't come up almost right away from any number of different
sources. Surely many people have tried to make cell phone
calls in flight.
You can make a cell phone call from 0 to a million feet plus...
just have to have a tower within the em field being
propagated by the phone... And the higher you are
the more towers that are you may have connection with..

I have a real problem with credibility of anyone that
makes a statement that a particular height is a reason
for EM connections of a cell phone in the day of
towers every few miles... the "can you hear me now"
guy would be on top of that in a heart beat...
Post by Judy Stein
On the other hand, if there were no cell phone calls, it means
there would have had to have been a truly *massive* conspiracy.
The more people involved in a purported conspiracy, the less
likely it is to stay secret.
Post by Lawson English
http://www.physics911.org/911/index.php
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/faculty/akd/PERSONAL/books_and_articles.html
Harry Conover
2003-09-08 23:42:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
Post by Judy Stein
Post by Lawson English
Post by Paul
i find it really hilarious that science has changed in the new
millenium
Post by Judy Stein
Post by Lawson English
Post by Paul
steel used to have so much better qualities before the year 2000
I notice that no-one has actually attempted to refute what he says on
his
Post by Judy Stein
Post by Lawson English
web-site. This is bothersome. Even a URL to refutations would be
comforting.
Post by Judy Stein
For anybody reading this who hasn't seen the site, he claims to
have done extensive tests and to have discovered that at the
height the hijacked planes were flying, the likelihood of a
cell phone call getting through is just about nil.
If that's true, it's a *very* difficult fact to incorporate
into the official story. What I don't understand is why it
didn't come up almost right away from any number of different
sources. Surely many people have tried to make cell phone
calls in flight.
You can make a cell phone call from 0 to a million feet plus...
just have to have a tower within the em field being
propagated by the phone... And the higher you are
the more towers that are you may have connection with..
Actually Paul, for a number of relatively complex reasons it is
generally impossible to use a cell phone from a plane in flight. This
is precisely why the airlines have installed Air-Phones or whatever
they are called in every row of seats, and do a healthy business on
them even from people who also have cell phones.
Post by Paul
I have a real problem with credibility of anyone that
makes a statement that a particular height is a reason
for EM connections of a cell phone in the day of
towers every few miles... the "can you hear me now"
guy would be on top of that in a heart beat...
In the presumed context of this discussion, the point is moot since
the press ultimately clarified that the air/ground calls on 9/11 were
actually made using Air-Phones (sp?). (These things now sport an RJ
connector, so that you can even network with your computer in flight,
albeit for a stiff price.)

Damn, some of you guys don't fly very often, do you?

At any rate, it is clear that some people on the flight that crashed
in PA were in contact with people who updated them on what was
happening elsewhere, the rest is history.

Harry C.
Paul R. Mays
2003-09-09 00:03:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry Conover
Post by Paul
Post by Judy Stein
Post by Lawson English
Post by Paul
i find it really hilarious that science has changed in the new
millenium
Post by Judy Stein
Post by Lawson English
Post by Paul
steel used to have so much better qualities before the year 2000
I notice that no-one has actually attempted to refute what he says on
his
Post by Judy Stein
Post by Lawson English
web-site. This is bothersome. Even a URL to refutations would be
comforting.
Post by Judy Stein
For anybody reading this who hasn't seen the site, he claims to
have done extensive tests and to have discovered that at the
height the hijacked planes were flying, the likelihood of a
cell phone call getting through is just about nil.
If that's true, it's a *very* difficult fact to incorporate
into the official story. What I don't understand is why it
didn't come up almost right away from any number of different
sources. Surely many people have tried to make cell phone
calls in flight.
You can make a cell phone call from 0 to a million feet plus...
just have to have a tower within the em field being
propagated by the phone... And the higher you are
the more towers that are you may have connection with..
Actually Paul, for a number of relatively complex reasons it is
generally impossible to use a cell phone from a plane in flight. This
is precisely why the airlines have installed Air-Phones or whatever
they are called in every row of seats, and do a healthy business on
them even from people who also have cell phones.
Post by Paul
I have a real problem with credibility of anyone that
makes a statement that a particular height is a reason
for EM connections of a cell phone in the day of
towers every few miles... the "can you hear me now"
guy would be on top of that in a heart beat...
In the presumed context of this discussion, the point is moot since
the press ultimately clarified that the air/ground calls on 9/11 were
actually made using Air-Phones (sp?). (These things now sport an RJ
connector, so that you can even network with your computer in flight,
albeit for a stiff price.)
Damn, some of you guys don't fly very often, do you?
At any rate, it is clear that some people on the flight that crashed
in PA were in contact with people who updated them on what was
happening elsewhere, the rest is history.
Harry C.
Absolutely correct... Didn't even think of Air-phones .. was just thinking
of cellular.. and it would not matter either way.. cause cellular
don't have a dead area just because their 800 or 1000 feet up...
Judy Stein
2003-09-09 06:03:08 UTC
Permalink
***@yahoo.com (Harry Conover) wrote in message news:<***@posting.google.com>...
<snip>
Post by Harry Conover
At any rate, it is clear that some people on the flight that crashed
in PA were in contact with people who updated them on what was
happening elsewhere, the rest is history.
Well, it *isn't* clear at all if the contact was purportedly
by cell phone. *Reports* of calls aren't proof that calls
took place. If these were supposed to be cell phone calls,
and if cell phone calls are impossible at the height the
planes were flying, then you have to posit some kind of
conspiracy to create bogus reports.

The existence of *reports* of phone calls doesn't prove
a thing. You have to show that *some* kind of phone
calls were possible, and that the means to make such
cals were availale to the people who purportedly made
them.
Paul R. Mays
2003-09-09 06:25:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judy Stein
<snip>
Post by Harry Conover
At any rate, it is clear that some people on the flight that crashed
in PA were in contact with people who updated them on what was
happening elsewhere, the rest is history.
Well, it *isn't* clear at all if the contact was purportedly
by cell phone. *Reports* of calls aren't proof that calls
took place. If these were supposed to be cell phone calls,
and if cell phone calls are impossible at the height the
planes were flying, then you have to posit some kind of
conspiracy to create bogus reports.
The existence of *reports* of phone calls doesn't prove
a thing. You have to show that *some* kind of phone
calls were possible, and that the means to make such
cals were availale to the people who purportedly made
them.
How bout the 911 recordings of the calls... or are they
( all the folks at the 911 centers) also part of the vast
conspiracy?

But anyway... where the hell did this "you can't make
a cell call from a specific altitude" come from ?

Cause it ain't so....
Judy Stein
2003-09-09 16:11:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul R. Mays
Post by Judy Stein
<snip>
Post by Harry Conover
At any rate, it is clear that some people on the flight that crashed
in PA were in contact with people who updated them on what was
happening elsewhere, the rest is history.
Well, it *isn't* clear at all if the contact was purportedly
by cell phone. *Reports* of calls aren't proof that calls
took place. If these were supposed to be cell phone calls,
and if cell phone calls are impossible at the height the
planes were flying, then you have to posit some kind of
conspiracy to create bogus reports.
The existence of *reports* of phone calls doesn't prove
a thing. You have to show that *some* kind of phone
calls were possible, and that the means to make such
cals were availale to the people who purportedly made
them.
How bout the 911 recordings of the calls... or are they
( all the folks at the 911 centers) also part of the vast
conspiracy?
I don't believe the conspiracy theories (except for the
"benign neglect" one). I'm just devil's-advocating in an
attempt to elicit a solid explanation of the apparent cell
phone anomaly.

A couple of my friends are absolutely convinced the whole
thing was a Bush/Mossad plot. They don't seem to have
encountered the cell phone question yet, but they're bound
to eventually, and I'd like to be able to answer it
definitively.
Post by Paul R. Mays
But anyway... where the hell did this "you can't make
a cell call from a specific altitude" come from ?
Cause it ain't so....
If you look back in the thread, at the beginning there's a link to
an article by a conspiracy theorist--a practicing scientist--who
claims to have done a fairly elaborate experiment purportedly
showing cell phone calls can't be made at high altitudes.

Why do you say it ain't so?
Lawson English
2003-09-09 16:26:54 UTC
Permalink
"Judy Stein" <***@panix.com> wrote in message
[...]
Post by Judy Stein
If you look back in the thread, at the beginning there's a link to
an article by a conspiracy theorist--a practicing scientist--who
claims to have done a fairly elaborate experiment purportedly
showing cell phone calls can't be made at high altitudes.
Why do you say it ain't so?
The issue doesn't seem to be that you cannot make the call from a given
altitude. The issue seems to be that you can't get a reliable cellphone
connection at a high speed because you're moving so fast that you're likely
passing in and out of individual broadcast "cells" (the "cell" in cellphone
comes from the hexagonal shape of the overlapping broadcast areas of the
antennae) too fast for any given antenna to establish a reliable link before
you impinge on the next cell's area of influence (or whatever its called).
My guess is that this is related to altitude because you aren't going at
full speed during take-off and landing. How this affects the "airfone"
connections, I'm not sure. Perhaps they're using satellite hookups instead,
or have a stronger signal than individual cellphones? I know that they have
external antennae for the airfones, but that wouldn't seem to be relevant to
the speed issue, just the reliability and strength of the signal since
there's no metal shell in the way, unlike when trying to make a call with a
portable cellphone.

BTW, Dewdney isn't a "practicing scientist" -he's professor emertus in
Computer Science at a Canadian University and a well-known math and computer
science writer. Don't know how his field relates to this stuff but he's
certainly been around long enough to establish a network of friends and
colleagues who WOULD be competent in the relevant areas and he's got a
decent reputation so he might actually have people working with him who have
a professional knowledge of these issues.
Judy Stein
2003-09-09 23:42:19 UTC
Permalink
"Lawson English" <***@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:<ibn7b.4597$***@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
<snip>
How this affects the "airfone"
Post by Lawson English
connections, I'm not sure. Perhaps they're using satellite hookups instead,
or have a stronger signal than individual cellphones? I know that they have
external antennae for the airfones, but that wouldn't seem to be relevant to
the speed issue, just the reliability and strength of the signal since
there's no metal shell in the way, unlike when trying to make a call with a
portable cellphone.
Sherilyn suggested the Airfone calls are transmitted via the
plane's radio rather than the cell phone network.

But some of the calls apparently *were* from cell phones, not
the Airfones.
Post by Lawson English
BTW, Dewdney isn't a "practicing scientist" -he's professor emertus in
Computer Science at a Canadian University and a well-known math and computer
science writer.
OK, thanks for the correction.
Paul R. Mays
2003-09-09 17:31:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judy Stein
Post by Paul R. Mays
Post by Judy Stein
<snip>
Post by Harry Conover
At any rate, it is clear that some people on the flight that crashed
in PA were in contact with people who updated them on what was
happening elsewhere, the rest is history.
Well, it *isn't* clear at all if the contact was purportedly
by cell phone. *Reports* of calls aren't proof that calls
took place. If these were supposed to be cell phone calls,
and if cell phone calls are impossible at the height the
planes were flying, then you have to posit some kind of
conspiracy to create bogus reports.
The existence of *reports* of phone calls doesn't prove
a thing. You have to show that *some* kind of phone
calls were possible, and that the means to make such
cals were availale to the people who purportedly made
them.
How bout the 911 recordings of the calls... or are they
( all the folks at the 911 centers) also part of the vast
conspiracy?
I don't believe the conspiracy theories (except for the
"benign neglect" one). I'm just devil's-advocating in an
attempt to elicit a solid explanation of the apparent cell
phone anomaly.
A couple of my friends are absolutely convinced the whole
thing was a Bush/Mossad plot. They don't seem to have
encountered the cell phone question yet, but they're bound
to eventually, and I'd like to be able to answer it
definitively.
Post by Paul R. Mays
But anyway... where the hell did this "you can't make
a cell call from a specific altitude" come from ?
Cause it ain't so....
If you look back in the thread, at the beginning there's a link to
an article by a conspiracy theorist--a practicing scientist--who
claims to have done a fairly elaborate experiment purportedly
showing cell phone calls can't be made at high altitudes.
Why do you say it ain't so?
I have used a cell phone at 1500 feet (inside a plane), at 5000 feet(in
a plane), 300 feet (in a plane), 2000 feet (on a mountain), sea level
(in a boat), 700 feet to 1200 feet (in a balloon) ,,,,,

But besides that... a cell phone is a high freq transceiver nothing more
and transmits a digitally modulated rf signal in a fairly even
unidirectional
pattern..... The receiving towers are generally phased arrays to transmit
in a circular pattern overlapping the next two towers (or more) ... While
the
angle of transmission is directed out and the ant are designed to place
most of the signal horizontal as much as possible it still radiates in all
directions.... SO the pattern is sorta like a doughnut and over laps.

Now while if you are directly over a tower at some altitude you may hit
the "hole" for that tower and have a signal drop it would be more likely
that you would be over the "doughnut" by a factor of (just a guess) 1000.
and the "hole over a tower would be very short.. and you would be auto
switched to the next tower as soon a signal level hit the preset level for
switching of the tower your on at the moment...

Now... If I set up a test that puts me at a specific height at a specific
point on a single tower I may find that signal level drops to a point that I
drop connection this would not be the case in a plane flying over almost
anywhere USA ( except in the boonies) ...

Now there is the case that at the operating freq of cells it tends
to be line of sight and will drop out when line of sight to a tower
and another tower is either not close enough or is also blocked
by a dense structure. But this issue is mediated by having a
better line of un-obstructed sight when you are at a higher altitude.

As for the writer you mention I did see the post and I have no idea what
he knows about the way the cell phone network works or specifically
how he came to this position. Now if he would have said that the phones
would have dropped in and out upon occasion I would fully agree but
that's because of the velocity of a craft would cause rather fast switching
but to say that it was even "unlikely" that a cell phone could be used at
any altitude simple due to altitude is blatantly incorrect..

As an example.. about 6 months ago I flew from Detroit City Airport
to Sault St. Marie on a Cessna 180 ( I think, had the V tail) and I was on
the phone when we took off.... I had no problems at all until we did a
turn about a mile off the runway and the line dropped for about 15-20 sec
and I got signal back ( that would have been about 2000 - 2500 feet, a
guess)
and I had good signal when I hung up just over Pontiac (about 60 miles)
and was running at I think just over 5000 feet ( or what ever the pilots
flight plan was) .... And I also did one of those balloon rides last summer
and called my son to tell him about it cause it was so kewl....That was
around 700 feet and had to be a 1000 be the time we hung up...

Don't know what else to tell ya....
Judy Stein
2003-09-09 23:49:12 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by Paul R. Mays
Post by Judy Stein
If you look back in the thread, at the beginning there's a link to
an article by a conspiracy theorist--a practicing scientist--who
claims to have done a fairly elaborate experiment purportedly
showing cell phone calls can't be made at high altitudes.
Why do you say it ain't so?
I have used a cell phone at 1500 feet (inside a plane), at 5000 feet(in
a plane), 300 feet (in a plane), 2000 feet (on a mountain), sea level
(in a boat), 700 feet to 1200 feet (in a balloon) ,,,,,
What they're saying is that cell phones are unlikely to make
connections over 10,000 feet. Many of the calls were made
above that altitude.

Lawson outlined what the problem is in another post; it's the very
fast switching from receiver to receiver. One of those articles
says the reason cell phones aren't *allowed* to be used in planes
is not because it interferes with the plane's electronics, but
because the cell phone's attempt to make that fast switching fouls
up the cell phone network on the ground, creating something called a
"cascade." Apparently no cascades occurred during the period
those calls were supposedly being made.
Paul R. Mays
2003-09-10 00:44:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judy Stein
<snip>
Post by Paul R. Mays
Post by Judy Stein
If you look back in the thread, at the beginning there's a link to
an article by a conspiracy theorist--a practicing scientist--who
claims to have done a fairly elaborate experiment purportedly
showing cell phone calls can't be made at high altitudes.
Why do you say it ain't so?
I have used a cell phone at 1500 feet (inside a plane), at 5000 feet(in
a plane), 300 feet (in a plane), 2000 feet (on a mountain), sea level
(in a boat), 700 feet to 1200 feet (in a balloon) ,,,,,
What they're saying is that cell phones are unlikely to make
connections over 10,000 feet. Many of the calls were made
above that altitude.
Lawson outlined what the problem is in another post; it's the very
fast switching from receiver to receiver. One of those articles
says the reason cell phones aren't *allowed* to be used in planes
is not because it interferes with the plane's electronics, but
because the cell phone's attempt to make that fast switching fouls
up the cell phone network on the ground, creating something called a
"cascade." Apparently no cascades occurred during the period
those calls were supposedly being made.
Well as I mentioned there would be switching dropouts but
all I can say ( or all I'm gona say further on the subject) is
that I have been told to put away my cell phone while
flying while in the middle of a conversation at altitude on
the red eye from LA to Detroit and many other times as I've
traveled about.. I flew 280,000 miles (freq flyer mileage) in
92', about the same in 93, just over 100k in 94 and much less
for the next few years till 2000 when I was medically retired.
And cannot remember not being able to use either the phone
( my cell not the air phones) or getting my Email on my laptop
which uses my cell phone for a wireless connect.....
maybe I just have very good luck and EM waves like me as
much as the cell repeater towers ....
Chip Eastham
2003-09-09 19:52:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul R. Mays
Post by Judy Stein
<snip>
Post by Harry Conover
At any rate, it is clear that some people on the flight that crashed
in PA were in contact with people who updated them on what was
happening elsewhere, the rest is history.
Well, it *isn't* clear at all if the contact was purportedly
by cell phone. *Reports* of calls aren't proof that calls
took place. If these were supposed to be cell phone calls,
and if cell phone calls are impossible at the height the
planes were flying, then you have to posit some kind of
conspiracy to create bogus reports.
The existence of *reports* of phone calls doesn't prove
a thing. You have to show that *some* kind of phone
calls were possible, and that the means to make such
cals were availale to the people who purportedly made
them.
How bout the 911 recordings of the calls... or are they
( all the folks at the 911 centers) also part of the vast
conspiracy?
But anyway... where the hell did this "you can't make
a cell call from a specific altitude" come from ?
Cause it ain't so....
Hi, Paul:

Early in this thread you stated at one point that:

"You can make a cell phone call from 0 to a million feet
plus... just have to have a tower within the em field being
propagated by the phone... And the higher you are
the more towers that are you may have connection with.."

and at another point that:

"cellular don't have a dead area just because their 800 or
1000 feet up..."

While it may be that you are deliberately unrealistic in
citing these figures for flight altitude, I want to point
out that "more towers" is not a good thing from the
standpoint of maintaining a call connection with a
cell phone. The protocols for handing off a connection
from one cell to another are not designed for arbitrating
a signal over several dozen cells. The chances of a
broken connection are greatly increased under this
circumstance.

The range of cell phone signals is finite, of course,
so altitude does factor in this way too. Older analog
signals may carry up to 10 miles. Newer "digital"
signals are limited to 5 or 6 miles (ideal conditions).

Being inside an airliner is probably not an ideal
condition; many anecdotal reports, not just the
experiments of Prof. Dewdney, point to an ability
to place calls during take-off and descent, but not
at the sorts of cruising altitudes (30,000 feet or
about 5.6 mi.) at which long distance flights go.

Commercial flight control depends on transponders
to ascertain the altitude of tracked planes, so with
the disabling of transponders on the hijacked planes,
ground control lost the ability to know what their
altitude was from minute to minute. Presumably
the NORAD system has an ability to measure the
altitudes of objects independently, but I've not
seen any data provided by them.

So we don't know how high the planes were at
the times the calls were reportedly made. The
technology used by GTE Airfone (now a Verizon
company), ARAD (airborne radio unit), is similar
to cellular technology, but of course with the
advantage of having an antenna designed for
the purpose permanently mounted on the
surface of the airliner.

regards, chip
Phil Carmody
2003-09-12 10:46:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chip Eastham
The range of cell phone signals is finite, of course,
so altitude does factor in this way too.
Yup.
Post by Chip Eastham
Older analog
signals may carry up to 10 miles. Newer "digital"
signals are limited to 5 or 6 miles (ideal conditions).
Only if there are 6-7 kilometers in a mile, which there aren't.

There's nothing wrong with a 35km distance (70km round trip)
to a base-station for even my somewhat antiquated digital
phone, in theory. I've never been further than 20km from a
base-station, and my connection was perfect at that distance.

Phil
Phil Carmody
2003-09-12 10:30:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul R. Mays
You can make a cell phone call from 0 to a million feet plus...
Erm, no you can't.
[SNIP]
s***@suespammers.org
2003-09-08 19:21:15 UTC
Permalink
[Note trimmed follow-ups. Please alter if required.]
Post by Judy Stein
Post by Lawson English
Post by Paul
i find it really hilarious that science has changed in the new millenium
steel used to have so much better qualities before the year 2000
I notice that no-one has actually attempted to refute what he says on his
web-site. This is bothersome. Even a URL to refutations would be comforting.
For anybody reading this who hasn't seen the site, he claims to
have done extensive tests and to have discovered that at the
height the hijacked planes were flying, the likelihood of a
cell phone call getting through is just about nil.
If that's true, it's a *very* difficult fact to incorporate
into the official story. What I don't understand is why it
didn't come up almost right away from any number of different
sources. Surely many people have tried to make cell phone
calls in flight.
On the other hand, if there were no cell phone calls, it means
there would have had to have been a truly *massive* conspiracy.
The more people involved in a purported conspiracy, the less
likely it is to stay secret.
Could not phone calls from the planes have come via the normal
communications systems of the plane? Last time I traveled in the USA
(before September, 2001) there were phones on the seat backs of some
planes on internal flights; these could be operated by swiping a
credit card in the slot provided to pay for the call. Presumably the
aircraft's radio communication equipment would be used to relay calls
from this phone to systems on the ground. People receiving a call from
such a phone would not necessarily know of this system and might tend
to assume that the caller on the plane was using a cell phone. Thus
Dewdney may be barking up the wrong tree. This seems more likely to be the
case than either a cell phone magically working at high altitude _or_
an elaborate conspiracy.
Judy Stein
2003-09-09 00:39:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@suespammers.org
[Note trimmed follow-ups. Please alter if required.]
I'm posting from Google, and it doesn't show followups, FWIW.

<snip>
Post by s***@suespammers.org
Could not phone calls from the planes have come via the normal
communications systems of the plane? Last time I traveled in the USA
(before September, 2001) there were phones on the seat backs of some
planes on internal flights; these could be operated by swiping a
credit card in the slot provided to pay for the call. Presumably the
aircraft's radio communication equipment would be used to relay calls
from this phone to systems on the ground. People receiving a call from
such a phone would not necessarily know of this system and might tend
to assume that the caller on the plane was using a cell phone. Thus
Dewdney may be barking up the wrong tree. This seems more likely to be the
case than either a cell phone magically working at high altitude _or_
an elaborate conspiracy.
That's a hopeful thought. Sounds plausible to me.
Lawson English
2003-09-09 00:42:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judy Stein
Post by s***@suespammers.org
[Note trimmed follow-ups. Please alter if required.]
I'm posting from Google, and it doesn't show followups, FWIW.
<snip>
Post by s***@suespammers.org
Could not phone calls from the planes have come via the normal
communications systems of the plane? Last time I traveled in the USA
(before September, 2001) there were phones on the seat backs of some
planes on internal flights; these could be operated by swiping a
credit card in the slot provided to pay for the call. Presumably the
aircraft's radio communication equipment would be used to relay calls
from this phone to systems on the ground. People receiving a call from
such a phone would not necessarily know of this system and might tend
to assume that the caller on the plane was using a cell phone. Thus
Dewdney may be barking up the wrong tree. This seems more likely to be the
case than either a cell phone magically working at high altitude _or_
an elaborate conspiracy.
That's a hopeful thought. Sounds plausible to me.
Very sad if no-one pointed it out to him. Even more sad if someone DID point
it out to him.
Judy Stein
2003-09-09 05:52:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawson English
Post by Judy Stein
Post by s***@suespammers.org
[Note trimmed follow-ups. Please alter if required.]
I'm posting from Google, and it doesn't show followups, FWIW.
<snip>
Post by s***@suespammers.org
Could not phone calls from the planes have come via the normal
communications systems of the plane? Last time I traveled in the USA
(before September, 2001) there were phones on the seat backs of some
planes on internal flights; these could be operated by swiping a
credit card in the slot provided to pay for the call. Presumably the
aircraft's radio communication equipment would be used to relay calls
from this phone to systems on the ground. People receiving a call from
such a phone would not necessarily know of this system and might tend
to assume that the caller on the plane was using a cell phone. Thus
Dewdney may be barking up the wrong tree. This seems more likely to be
the
Post by Judy Stein
Post by s***@suespammers.org
case than either a cell phone magically working at high altitude _or_
an elaborate conspiracy.
That's a hopeful thought. Sounds plausible to me.
Very sad if no-one pointed it out to him. Even more sad if someone DID point
it out to him.
Pointed it out *to whom*?
Lawson English
2003-09-09 08:48:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judy Stein
Post by Lawson English
Post by Judy Stein
Post by s***@suespammers.org
[Note trimmed follow-ups. Please alter if required.]
I'm posting from Google, and it doesn't show followups, FWIW.
<snip>
Post by s***@suespammers.org
Could not phone calls from the planes have come via the normal
communications systems of the plane? Last time I traveled in the USA
(before September, 2001) there were phones on the seat backs of some
planes on internal flights; these could be operated by swiping a
credit card in the slot provided to pay for the call. Presumably the
aircraft's radio communication equipment would be used to relay calls
from this phone to systems on the ground. People receiving a call from
such a phone would not necessarily know of this system and might tend
to assume that the caller on the plane was using a cell phone. Thus
Dewdney may be barking up the wrong tree. This seems more likely to be
the
Post by Judy Stein
Post by s***@suespammers.org
case than either a cell phone magically working at high altitude _or_
an elaborate conspiracy.
That's a hopeful thought. Sounds plausible to me.
Very sad if no-one pointed it out to him. Even more sad if someone DID point
it out to him.
Pointed it out *to whom*?
Dewney. However, someone sent me this URL:

http://feralnews.com/issues/911/dewdney/ghost_riders_1-4_1.html

Mention is made of "airfones" but I'm not sure that the difference between
them was allowed for in Dewndey's article
s***@suespammers.org
2003-09-10 00:34:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judy Stein
Post by s***@suespammers.org
[Note trimmed follow-ups. Please alter if required.]
I'm posting from Google, and it doesn't show followups, FWIW.
My posting agent suggests these limits, I think it's wise to
accept them but I know Google doesn't take notice of them. My
posting group is sci.skeptic, for your information.
Post by Judy Stein
<snip>
Post by s***@suespammers.org
Could not phone calls from the planes have come via the normal
communications systems of the plane? Last time I traveled in the USA
(before September, 2001) there were phones on the seat backs of some
planes on internal flights; these could be operated by swiping a
credit card in the slot provided to pay for the call. Presumably the
aircraft's radio communication equipment would be used to relay calls
from this phone to systems on the ground. People receiving a call from
such a phone would not necessarily know of this system and might tend
to assume that the caller on the plane was using a cell phone. Thus
Dewdney may be barking up the wrong tree. This seems more likely to be the
case than either a cell phone magically working at high altitude _or_
an elaborate conspiracy.
That's a hopeful thought. Sounds plausible to me.
I've read a bit more since posting this and it does seem that these
phones (airphones) were documented to have been used from some of the
planes. It does however seem that some of the calls may have been
made at low altitude, which Dewdney accepts would permit calls to be
made from mobiles. Three of the planes crashed into buildings and
this would necessarily have required level flying at relatively
low altitude, and in proximity to cell antennae intended to pick up
signals from the tops of the buildings at which the aircraft were aimed.

The fourth plane was crashed, apparently as a result of the actions of
passengers. A plausible alternative might be that the plane was downed
by scrambled jets, but then why not admit it? The plane was reputedly
intended to crash into the Whitehouse. If cell calls were received from
that plane, it would presumably be a simple matter to confirm this by
examining the billing records of passengers who supposedly phoned out
from that plane. Of course this kind of information could be faked if
the cellphone company was pressured, but this would again invoke
the 'massive conspiracy' limitation. That doesn't in itself rule out
an actual massive conspiracy, it just suggests that there may be more
innocent, more plausible explanations.
Judy Stein
2003-09-10 23:34:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@suespammers.org
Post by Judy Stein
Post by s***@suespammers.org
[Note trimmed follow-ups. Please alter if required.]
I'm posting from Google, and it doesn't show followups, FWIW.
My posting agent suggests these limits, I think it's wise to
accept them but I know Google doesn't take notice of them. My
posting group is sci.skeptic, for your information.
Post by Judy Stein
<snip>
Post by s***@suespammers.org
Could not phone calls from the planes have come via the normal
communications systems of the plane? Last time I traveled in the USA
(before September, 2001) there were phones on the seat backs of some
planes on internal flights; these could be operated by swiping a
credit card in the slot provided to pay for the call. Presumably the
aircraft's radio communication equipment would be used to relay calls
from this phone to systems on the ground. People receiving a call from
such a phone would not necessarily know of this system and might tend
to assume that the caller on the plane was using a cell phone. Thus
Dewdney may be barking up the wrong tree. This seems more likely to be the
case than either a cell phone magically working at high altitude _or_
an elaborate conspiracy.
That's a hopeful thought. Sounds plausible to me.
I've read a bit more since posting this and it does seem that these
phones (airphones) were documented to have been used from some of the
planes. It does however seem that some of the calls may have been
made at low altitude, which Dewdney accepts would permit calls to be
made from mobiles. Three of the planes crashed into buildings and
this would necessarily have required level flying at relatively
low altitude, and in proximity to cell antennae intended to pick up
signals from the tops of the buildings at which the aircraft were aimed.
I believe there were still some calls that were said to have been
made from cell phones before the planes descended.
Post by s***@suespammers.org
The fourth plane was crashed, apparently as a result of the actions of
passengers. A plausible alternative might be that the plane was downed
by scrambled jets, but then why not admit it? The plane was reputedly
intended to crash into the Whitehouse.
Because the "heroic passengers" story was much more palatable.
White House or no White House, if the public knew the government
had shot down the plane, it would have been a PR problem.

That the plane was shot down is one aspect of the conspiracy
theories I would not be surprised to find was true. There is
a whole bunch of anomalies, including stuff having to do with
the debris field and eyewitness accounts of other planes in the
immediate vicinity right before the crash.

But my guess would be that both could be true: the passengers
*did* attempt to overpower the hijackers, but the scrambled jets
either didn't know that was going on or weren't sure that it was
successful, so they shot the plane down anyway.

If cell calls were received from
Post by s***@suespammers.org
that plane, it would presumably be a simple matter to confirm this by
examining the billing records of passengers who supposedly phoned out
from that plane. Of course this kind of information could be faked if
the cellphone company was pressured
Faking it wouldn't do that much good if the calls were made from
an impossible altitude.

, but this would again invoke
Post by s***@suespammers.org
the 'massive conspiracy' limitation. That doesn't in itself rule out
an actual massive conspiracy, it just suggests that there may be more
innocent, more plausible explanations.
I still would love to see a plot of what calls were made when, from
what kind of phone at what altitude.
Back by popular demand
2003-09-11 00:05:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judy Stein
Post by s***@suespammers.org
Post by Judy Stein
Post by s***@suespammers.org
[Note trimmed follow-ups. Please alter if required.]
I'm posting from Google, and it doesn't show followups, FWIW.
My posting agent suggests these limits, I think it's wise to
accept them but I know Google doesn't take notice of them. My
posting group is sci.skeptic, for your information.
Post by Judy Stein
<snip>
Post by s***@suespammers.org
Could not phone calls from the planes have come via the normal
communications systems of the plane? Last time I traveled in the USA
(before September, 2001) there were phones on the seat backs of some
planes on internal flights; these could be operated by swiping a
credit card in the slot provided to pay for the call. Presumably the
aircraft's radio communication equipment would be used to relay calls
from this phone to systems on the ground. People receiving a call from
such a phone would not necessarily know of this system and might tend
to assume that the caller on the plane was using a cell phone. Thus
Dewdney may be barking up the wrong tree. This seems more likely to be the
case than either a cell phone magically working at high altitude _or_
an elaborate conspiracy.
That's a hopeful thought. Sounds plausible to me.
I've read a bit more since posting this and it does seem that these
phones (airphones) were documented to have been used from some of the
planes. It does however seem that some of the calls may have been
made at low altitude, which Dewdney accepts would permit calls to be
made from mobiles. Three of the planes crashed into buildings and
this would necessarily have required level flying at relatively
low altitude, and in proximity to cell antennae intended to pick up
signals from the tops of the buildings at which the aircraft were aimed.
I believe there were still some calls that were said to have been
made from cell phones before the planes descended.
Post by s***@suespammers.org
The fourth plane was crashed, apparently as a result of the actions of
passengers. A plausible alternative might be that the plane was downed
by scrambled jets, but then why not admit it? The plane was reputedly
intended to crash into the Whitehouse.
Because the "heroic passengers" story was much more palatable.
White House or no White House, if the public knew the government
had shot down the plane, it would have been a PR problem.
That the plane was shot down is one aspect of the conspiracy
theories I would not be surprised to find was true. There is
a whole bunch of anomalies, including stuff having to do with
the debris field and eyewitness accounts of other planes in the
immediate vicinity right before the crash.
But my guess would be that both could be true: the passengers
*did* attempt to overpower the hijackers, but the scrambled jets
either didn't know that was going on or weren't sure that it was
successful, so they shot the plane down anyway.
Before you add ignorance to conspiracy, why don't you watch the PBS special
on 9-11 and get the info straight from the pilot's mouth.
Post by Judy Stein
If cell calls were received from
Post by s***@suespammers.org
that plane, it would presumably be a simple matter to confirm this by
examining the billing records of passengers who supposedly phoned out
from that plane. Of course this kind of information could be faked if
the cellphone company was pressured
Faking it wouldn't do that much good if the calls were made from
an impossible altitude.
, but this would again invoke
Post by s***@suespammers.org
the 'massive conspiracy' limitation. That doesn't in itself rule out
an actual massive conspiracy, it just suggests that there may be more
innocent, more plausible explanations.
I still would love to see a plot of what calls were made when, from
what kind of phone at what altitude.
What altitude would a plane be on if it is trying to avoid radar?
Judy Stein
2003-09-11 16:04:14 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by Back by popular demand
Post by Judy Stein
But my guess would be that both could be true: the passengers
*did* attempt to overpower the hijackers, but the scrambled jets
either didn't know that was going on or weren't sure that it was
successful, so they shot the plane down anyway.
Before you add ignorance to conspiracy, why don't you watch the PBS special
on 9-11 and get the info straight from the pilot's mouth.
Which pilot would that be?

<snip>
Post by Back by popular demand
Post by Judy Stein
I still would love to see a plot of what calls were made when, from
what kind of phone at what altitude.
What altitude would a plane be on if it is trying to avoid radar?
What makes you think the planes were trying to avoid radar?
Back by popular demand
2003-09-11 17:13:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judy Stein
<snip>
Post by Back by popular demand
Post by Judy Stein
But my guess would be that both could be true: the passengers
*did* attempt to overpower the hijackers, but the scrambled jets
either didn't know that was going on or weren't sure that it was
successful, so they shot the plane down anyway.
Before you add ignorance to conspiracy, why don't you watch the PBS special
on 9-11 and get the info straight from the pilot's mouth.
Which pilot would that be?
Watch the show and you will know.
Post by Judy Stein
<snip>
Post by Back by popular demand
Post by Judy Stein
I still would love to see a plot of what calls were made when, from
what kind of phone at what altitude.
What altitude would a plane be on if it is trying to avoid radar?
What makes you think the planes were trying to avoid radar?
Watch the show and you will know.
Judy Stein
2003-09-11 21:23:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judy Stein
<snip>
Post by Judy Stein
Post by Back by popular demand
Post by Judy Stein
But my guess would be that both could be true: the passengers
*did* attempt to overpower the hijackers, but the scrambled jets
either didn't know that was going on or weren't sure that it was
successful, so they shot the plane down anyway.
Before you add ignorance to conspiracy, why don't you watch the PBS
special
Post by Judy Stein
Post by Back by popular demand
on 9-11 and get the info straight from the pilot's mouth.
Which pilot would that be?
Watch the show and you will know.
It was on last night, asshole.

Obviously you have no idea what you're talking about, or you'd
just say which pilot.
Post by Judy Stein
Post by Judy Stein
<snip>
Post by Back by popular demand
Post by Judy Stein
I still would love to see a plot of what calls were made when, from
what kind of phone at what altitude.
What altitude would a plane be on if it is trying to avoid radar?
What makes you think the planes were trying to avoid radar?
Watch the show and you will know.
Ditto.
Back by popular demand
2003-09-11 21:41:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judy Stein
Post by Judy Stein
<snip>
Post by Judy Stein
Post by Back by popular demand
Post by Judy Stein
But my guess would be that both could be true: the passengers
*did* attempt to overpower the hijackers, but the scrambled jets
either didn't know that was going on or weren't sure that it was
successful, so they shot the plane down anyway.
Before you add ignorance to conspiracy, why don't you watch the PBS
special
Post by Judy Stein
Post by Back by popular demand
on 9-11 and get the info straight from the pilot's mouth.
Which pilot would that be?
Watch the show and you will know.
It was on last night, asshole.
My dear lady, PBS is known to run repeats in the hundreds, just check your
guide.
Post by Judy Stein
Obviously you have no idea what you're talking about, or you'd
just say which pilot.
The ones who were up in the air of course. Do you know how many there were?
greywolf42
2003-09-11 16:58:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judy Stein
Post by Lawson English
Post by Paul
i find it really hilarious that science has changed in the new millenium
steel used to have so much better qualities before the year 2000
I notice that no-one has actually attempted to refute what he says on his
web-site. This is bothersome. Even a URL to refutations would be comforting.
For anybody reading this who hasn't seen the site, he claims to
have done extensive tests and to have discovered that at the
height the hijacked planes were flying, the likelihood of a
cell phone call getting through is just about nil.
If that's true, it's a *very* difficult fact to incorporate
into the official story. What I don't understand is why it
didn't come up almost right away from any number of different
sources. Surely many people have tried to make cell phone
calls in flight.
Many people did make that objection. However, this *may* simply have been
an error in reporting. Lord knows our newspapers are not very good at
getting the details straight.

If you pick up some of the published photo/timelines books on 9/11*, you'll
find that the official story (at least now) is that the Pennsylvania flight
calls came over 'Flightphones'. These are the credit-card operated phones
in airliner seatbacks. It also made the claim that all of the
(Pennsylvania) crash calls came through a single operator. (And when I've
used those phones, I don't get an 'operator.') It's possible that reporters
don't know the difference between a 'Flitephone' and a cell phone. Or just
believe that since 'everyone' knows what a cell phone is, the difference
doesn't matter.

*Sorry, but I don't own the particular book. I read it at my parent's
house, and I don't remember the title.

Oddly enough, the book also notes that, while the pilots of the trade tower
and pentagon planes all dialed their ATC transponder codes for 'highjacked',
the Pennsylvania plane never did. And that the Pennsylvania flight didn't
change course until the FAA ordered all planes to land.
Post by Judy Stein
On the other hand, if there were no cell phone calls, it means
there would have had to have been a truly *massive* conspiracy.
The more people involved in a purported conspiracy, the less
likely it is to stay secret.
Post by Lawson English
http://www.physics911.org/911/index.php
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/faculty/akd/PERSONAL/books_and_articles.html
Judy Stein
2003-09-11 23:52:44 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by greywolf42
Post by Judy Stein
If that's true, it's a *very* difficult fact to incorporate
into the official story. What I don't understand is why it
didn't come up almost right away from any number of different
sources. Surely many people have tried to make cell phone
calls in flight.
Many people did make that objection.
Huh, I never saw it, and I've been keeping my eye on the conspiracy
theories.

However, this *may* simply have been
Post by greywolf42
an error in reporting. Lord knows our newspapers are not very good at
getting the details straight.
If you pick up some of the published photo/timelines books on 9/11*, you'll
find that the official story (at least now) is that the Pennsylvania flight
calls came over 'Flightphones'.
Right, but what about all the calls from the three other planes?
Post by greywolf42
used those phones, I don't get an 'operator.') It's possible that reporters
don't know the difference between a 'Flitephone' and a cell phone. Or just
believe that since 'everyone' knows what a cell phone is, the difference
doesn't matter.
That certainly could be. But I'd love to see some documentation
that *all* the calls from *all* the planes were made from the
planes' own phones, or from cell phones at very low altitudes.

<snip>
Post by greywolf42
Oddly enough, the book also notes that, while the pilots of the trade tower
and pentagon planes all dialed their ATC transponder codes for 'highjacked',
the Pennsylvania plane never did. And that the Pennsylvania flight didn't
change course until the FAA ordered all planes to land.
What are the implications, do you think?
greywolf42
2003-09-13 15:23:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judy Stein
<snip>
Post by greywolf42
Post by Judy Stein
If that's true, it's a *very* difficult fact to incorporate
into the official story. What I don't understand is why it
didn't come up almost right away from any number of different
sources. Surely many people have tried to make cell phone
calls in flight.
Many people did make that objection.
Huh, I never saw it, and I've been keeping my eye on the conspiracy
theories.
I didn't read it, I discussed it with many people. Mostly other pilots.
Post by Judy Stein
Post by greywolf42
However, this *may* simply have been
an error in reporting. Lord knows our newspapers are not very good at
getting the details straight.
If you pick up some of the published photo/timelines books on 9/11*, you'll
find that the official story (at least now) is that the Pennsylvania flight
calls came over 'Flightphones'.
Right, but what about all the calls from the three other planes?
None were mentioned in that "official" book that I saw.
Post by Judy Stein
Post by greywolf42
used those phones, I don't get an 'operator.') It's possible that reporters
don't know the difference between a 'Flitephone' and a cell phone. Or just
believe that since 'everyone' knows what a cell phone is, the difference
doesn't matter.
That certainly could be. But I'd love to see some documentation
that *all* the calls from *all* the planes were made from the
planes' own phones, or from cell phones at very low altitudes.
I don't have any doubt that there may have been calls from flightphones or
cell phones from the planes that collided with the twin towers and the
Pentagon. All three were at low level for a significant amount of time.
Post by Judy Stein
<snip>
Post by greywolf42
Oddly enough, the book also notes that, while the pilots of the trade tower
and pentagon planes all dialed their ATC transponder codes for 'highjacked',
the Pennsylvania plane never did. And that the Pennsylvania flight didn't
change course until the FAA ordered all planes to land.
What are the implications, do you think?
I have a hard time understanding why in the Pennsylvania crash, the flight
crew didn't dial their transponder hijack code (the first thing they're
trained to do). And if they *were* hijacked -- why the *hijackers*
'officially' waited until the plane reached Lake Michigan to try to hijack
the plane (since the 'official' presumed target was in D.C.). The other
three groups all acted within 20 minutes of takeoff. The Pennsylvania
flight didn't turn around until ordered to land by the FAA/ATC. And the
plane turned SOUTH, not East. Flew for a while. Then turned East. Almost
like they were following ATC commands. There *had* to be some confusion --
because the initial ATC commands simply directed "land as soon as possible."
But airliners can't just land in a field, they have to head to a major city
and get fit in with the local traffic. And you have to fly someplace, while
finding somebody to let you land.

The implications are clear. Interceptors had been scrambled at all air
bases throughout the US half an hour to an hour earlier (plenty of time to
reach that area). I suspect a trigger-happy bureaucrat gave some panicky
orders to one or more of those interceptors (I presume after watching the
plane turn East -- but without checking ATC orders and/or airline company
communications). The pilots of interceptors do not communicate with
airliners, but rely on military chain-of-command to direct their actions.

But it would be embarrassing to admit that we shot one of our own airliners
down, simply because somebody panicked. It's possible that the plane *was*
hijacked. By an inept group that waited two hours before taking over, then
headed south instead of east for 20 minutes (while making up their minds
where to go?). And all 4 passenger communications to the 'outside' were
handled by a single 'operator' -- when neither flightphones nor cell phones
normally use 'operators.'

greywolf42
ubi dubium ibi libertas
Judy Stein
2003-09-13 21:30:53 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by greywolf42
Post by Judy Stein
Post by greywolf42
If you pick up some of the published photo/timelines books on 9/11*,
you'll find that the official story (at least now) is that the
Pennsylvania flight calls came over 'Flightphones'.
Right, but what about all the calls from the three other planes?
None were mentioned in that "official" book that I saw.
Well, they were reported in considerable detail in the media.

<snip>
Post by greywolf42
Post by Judy Stein
That certainly could be. But I'd love to see some documentation
that *all* the calls from *all* the planes were made from the
planes' own phones, or from cell phones at very low altitudes.
I don't have any doubt that there may have been calls from flightphones or
cell phones from the planes that collided with the twin towers and the
Pentagon. All three were at low level for a significant amount of time.
I guess it's a moot point unless we had the kind of list
I mentioned. I know there have been timelines made of the
calls, but whether there's information available on the planes'
altitudes at those specific times, I'm not sure.

<snip>
Post by greywolf42
But it would be embarrassing to admit that we shot one of our own airliners
down, simply because somebody panicked.
Oh, my, I've never heard *that* particular conspiracy theory before.
That would have to be an awfully elaborate setup involving many
people. My willlingness to entertain conspiracy theories is
inversely proportional to the number of people who would have had
to have been in on the conspiracy.
Richard Henry
2003-09-14 02:30:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judy Stein
<snip>
Post by greywolf42
Post by Judy Stein
Post by greywolf42
If you pick up some of the published photo/timelines books on 9/11*,
you'll find that the official story (at least now) is that the
Pennsylvania flight calls came over 'Flightphones'.
Right, but what about all the calls from the three other planes?
None were mentioned in that "official" book that I saw.
Well, they were reported in considerable detail in the media.
Last Thursday the local PBS station replayed a memorial show origianlly
aired last year composed of recorded messages of people around the country.
One of them included the voice mail recording from her husband calling
fromone of the hijacked planes.
Proginoskes
2003-09-08 05:25:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawson English
Post by Paul
i find it really hilarious that science has changed in the new millenium
steel used to have so much better qualities before the year 2000
I notice that no-one has actually attempted to refute what he says on his
web-site. This is bothersome. Even a URL to refutations would be comforting.
http://www.physics911.org/911/index.php
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/faculty/akd/PERSONAL/books_and_articles.html
The Bush Administration has fought hard to keep an investigation of the
events from 9/11/2001 from occuring, and there is conflicting evidence,
so lots of conspiracy theories are bound to come up.
One such anomaly was the fourth hijacked plane which crashed in
Pennsylvania. At that point, Air Force jets had been scrambled, and some
eyewitnesses alleged that the passenger plane was shot down, in accordance
with standard procedure for such an event (terrorists having hijacked a
plane), which is (regrettably) the proper thing to do. However, the AF
is DENYING that they did the right thing.
And can four hijackers REALLY take over a plane with box cutters and
plastic knives? If I had been on one of those planes, I would have seriously
considered trying to subdue at least one of them, if these were the only
weapons they were carrying.
-- Christopher Heckman
Paul R. Mays
2003-09-08 06:02:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Proginoskes
Post by Lawson English
Post by Paul
i find it really hilarious that science has changed in the new millenium
steel used to have so much better qualities before the year 2000
I notice that no-one has actually attempted to refute what he says on his
web-site. This is bothersome. Even a URL to refutations would be comforting.
http://www.physics911.org/911/index.php
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/faculty/akd/PERSONAL/books_and_articles.html
The Bush Administration has fought hard to keep an investigation of the
events from 9/11/2001 from occuring, and there is conflicting evidence,
so lots of conspiracy theories are bound to come up.
One such anomaly was the fourth hijacked plane which crashed in
Pennsylvania. At that point, Air Force jets had been scrambled, and some
eyewitnesses alleged that the passenger plane was shot down, in accordance
with standard procedure for such an event (terrorists having hijacked a
plane), which is (regrettably) the proper thing to do. However, the AF
is DENYING that they did the right thing.
And can four hijackers REALLY take over a plane with box cutters and
plastic knives? If I had been on one of those planes, I would have seriously
considered trying to subdue at least one of them, if these were the only
weapons they were carrying.
-- Christopher Heckman
Very easy to thump your chest and say your brave
till faced with reality.. Had lots of very, very
pre-brave guys in my platoon in 70... till the
bullets fly... then it was faster that a John Deer
combine at the separation of chaff from the wheat....
Proginoskes
2003-09-08 22:00:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
Post by Proginoskes
Post by Lawson English
Post by Paul
i find it really hilarious that science has changed in the new
millenium
Post by Proginoskes
Post by Lawson English
Post by Paul
steel used to have so much better qualities before the year 2000
I notice that no-one has actually attempted to refute what he says on
his
Post by Proginoskes
Post by Lawson English
web-site. This is bothersome. Even a URL to refutations would be
comforting.
Post by Proginoskes
Post by Lawson English
http://www.physics911.org/911/index.php
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/faculty/akd/PERSONAL/books_and_articles.html
The Bush Administration has fought hard to keep an investigation of the
events from 9/11/2001 from occuring, and there is conflicting evidence,
so lots of conspiracy theories are bound to come up.
One such anomaly was the fourth hijacked plane which crashed in
Pennsylvania. At that point, Air Force jets had been scrambled, and some
eyewitnesses alleged that the passenger plane was shot down, in accordance
with standard procedure for such an event (terrorists having hijacked a
plane), which is (regrettably) the proper thing to do. However, the AF
is DENYING that they did the right thing.
And can four hijackers REALLY take over a plane with box cutters and
plastic knives? If I had been on one of those planes, I would have
seriously
Post by Proginoskes
considered trying to subdue at least one of them, if these were the only
weapons they were carrying.
-- Christopher Heckman
Very easy to thump your chest and say your brave
till faced with reality.. Had lots of very, very
pre-brave guys in my platoon in 70... till the
bullets fly... then it was faster that a John Deer
combine at the separation of chaff from the wheat....
They're just going into survival mode. If you had to make a choice between
dying and possibly living, which would _you_ make?
-- Christopher Heckman

P.S. At least I'm brave enough to sign my name to my posts.
Paul R. Mays
2003-09-08 22:32:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Proginoskes
Post by Paul
Post by Proginoskes
Post by Lawson English
Post by Paul
i find it really hilarious that science has changed in the new
millenium
Post by Proginoskes
Post by Lawson English
Post by Paul
steel used to have so much better qualities before the year 2000
I notice that no-one has actually attempted to refute what he says on
his
Post by Proginoskes
Post by Lawson English
web-site. This is bothersome. Even a URL to refutations would be
comforting.
Post by Proginoskes
Post by Lawson English
http://www.physics911.org/911/index.php
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/faculty/akd/PERSONAL/books_and_articles.html
The Bush Administration has fought hard to keep an investigation of the
events from 9/11/2001 from occuring, and there is conflicting evidence,
so lots of conspiracy theories are bound to come up.
One such anomaly was the fourth hijacked plane which crashed in
Pennsylvania. At that point, Air Force jets had been scrambled, and some
eyewitnesses alleged that the passenger plane was shot down, in accordance
with standard procedure for such an event (terrorists having hijacked a
plane), which is (regrettably) the proper thing to do. However, the AF
is DENYING that they did the right thing.
And can four hijackers REALLY take over a plane with box cutters and
plastic knives? If I had been on one of those planes, I would have
seriously
Post by Proginoskes
considered trying to subdue at least one of them, if these were the only
weapons they were carrying.
-- Christopher Heckman
Very easy to thump your chest and say your brave
till faced with reality.. Had lots of very, very
pre-brave guys in my platoon in 70... till the
bullets fly... then it was faster that a John Deer
combine at the separation of chaff from the wheat....
They're just going into survival mode. If you had to make a choice between
dying and possibly living, which would _you_ make?
-- Christopher Heckman
P.S. At least I'm brave enough to sign my name to my posts.
The choice I would make is dependent on situation..
I'm a service connected disable vet and see no need to
validate my gonadal strengths... And I'm smart enough
to look at the post heading to see the name of the poster
and see no need to double sign a post... And if you
equate signing your name to a post is in any way brave I'm
am sure glad you were not at my side in Phu Bi....
Proginoskes
2003-09-09 22:19:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
Post by Proginoskes
Post by Paul R. Mays
Post by Proginoskes
Post by Lawson English
Post by Paul
i find it really hilarious that science has changed in the new
millenium
Post by Proginoskes
Post by Paul R. Mays
Post by Proginoskes
Post by Lawson English
Post by Paul
steel used to have so much better qualities before the year 2000
I notice that no-one has actually attempted to refute what he says
on
his
Post by Proginoskes
Post by Paul R. Mays
Post by Proginoskes
Post by Lawson English
web-site. This is bothersome. Even a URL to refutations would be
comforting.
Post by Proginoskes
Post by Paul R. Mays
Post by Proginoskes
Post by Lawson English
http://www.physics911.org/911/index.php
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/faculty/akd/PERSONAL/books_and_articles.html
The Bush Administration has fought hard to keep an investigation of
the
Post by Proginoskes
Post by Paul R. Mays
Post by Proginoskes
events from 9/11/2001 from occuring, and there is conflicting
evidence,
Post by Proginoskes
Post by Paul R. Mays
Post by Proginoskes
so lots of conspiracy theories are bound to come up.
One such anomaly was the fourth hijacked plane which crashed in
Pennsylvania. At that point, Air Force jets had been scrambled, and
some
Post by Proginoskes
Post by Paul R. Mays
Post by Proginoskes
eyewitnesses alleged that the passenger plane was shot down, in
accordance
Post by Proginoskes
Post by Paul R. Mays
Post by Proginoskes
with standard procedure for such an event (terrorists having hijacked
a
Post by Proginoskes
Post by Paul R. Mays
Post by Proginoskes
plane), which is (regrettably) the proper thing to do. However, the AF
is DENYING that they did the right thing.
And can four hijackers REALLY take over a plane with box cutters
and
Post by Proginoskes
Post by Paul R. Mays
Post by Proginoskes
plastic knives? If I had been on one of those planes, I would have
seriously
Post by Proginoskes
Post by Paul R. Mays
Post by Proginoskes
considered trying to subdue at least one of them, if these were the
only
Post by Proginoskes
Post by Paul R. Mays
Post by Proginoskes
weapons they were carrying.
-- Christopher Heckman
Very easy to thump your chest and say your brave
till faced with reality.. Had lots of very, very
pre-brave guys in my platoon in 70... till the
bullets fly... then it was faster that a John Deer
combine at the separation of chaff from the wheat....
They're just going into survival mode. If you had to make a choice between
dying and possibly living, which would _you_ make?
-- Christopher Heckman
P.S. At least I'm brave enough to sign my name to my posts.
The choice I would make is dependent on situation..
I'm a service connected disable vet and see no need to
validate my gonadal strengths... And I'm smart enough
to look at the post heading to see the name of the poster
and see no need to double sign a post... And if you
equate signing your name to a post is in any way brave I'm
am sure glad you were not at my side in Phu Bi....
I'm glad I wasn't at Phu Bi. I was barely a fetus then.
-- Christopher Heckman
Bobby D. Bryant
2003-09-12 02:18:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Proginoskes
Post by Lawson English
Post by Paul
i find it really hilarious that science has changed in the new millenium
steel used to have so much better qualities before the year 2000
I notice that no-one has actually attempted to refute what he says on his
web-site. This is bothersome. Even a URL to refutations would be comforting.
http://www.physics911.org/911/index.php
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/faculty/akd/PERSONAL/books_and_articles.html
The Bush Administration has fought hard to keep an investigation of the
events from 9/11/2001 from occuring, and there is conflicting evidence,
so lots of conspiracy theories are bound to come up.
Yeah, considering how popular conspiracy theories have been in general for
the past generation or so, the big surprise to me is that I haven't run
across *more* 911 CTs.
Post by Proginoskes
One such anomaly was the fourth hijacked plane which crashed in
Pennsylvania. At that point, Air Force jets had been scrambled, and some
eyewitnesses alleged that the passenger plane was shot down, in accordance
with standard procedure for such an event (terrorists having hijacked a
plane), which is (regrettably) the proper thing to do. However, the AF
is DENYING that they did the right thing.
That would be the sort of knee-jerk denial that you'd expect from the
military and public officials in such a situation. It doesn't seem to me
that it supports any kind of bigger conspiracy theory.
Post by Proginoskes
And can four hijackers REALLY take over a plane with box cutters and
plastic knives? If I had been on one of those planes, I would have seriously
considered trying to subdue at least one of them, if these were the only
weapons they were carrying.
If you don't know you're on a suicide run and they tell you they've got a
bomb if you don't behave, sitting still might seem like the best survival
strategy.

I think in the post-911 world a small group of hijackers armed only with
small blades would find themselves dismembered alive. But up until that
day we saw things differently.
--
Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas
Judy Stein
2003-09-12 13:07:10 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by Bobby D. Bryant
Post by Proginoskes
One such anomaly was the fourth hijacked plane which crashed in
Pennsylvania. At that point, Air Force jets had been scrambled, and some
eyewitnesses alleged that the passenger plane was shot down, in accordance
with standard procedure for such an event (terrorists having hijacked a
plane), which is (regrettably) the proper thing to do. However, the AF
is DENYING that they did the right thing.
That would be the sort of knee-jerk denial that you'd expect from the
military and public officials in such a situation. It doesn't seem to me
that it supports any kind of bigger conspiracy theory.
Right. And since the hardcore conspiracy theories are that
the administration planned and carried out the attacks, that it
shot this one down wouldn't even make any sense in that context.
Post by Bobby D. Bryant
Post by Proginoskes
And can four hijackers REALLY take over a plane with box cutters and
plastic knives? If I had been on one of those planes, I would have seriously
considered trying to subdue at least one of them, if these were the only
weapons they were carrying.
If you don't know you're on a suicide run and they tell you they've got a
bomb if you don't behave, sitting still might seem like the best survival
strategy.
I believe I recall reading that this was actually airline *policy*,
since up till that point hijackers were after ransom or transport
to a particular country or freeing political prisoners or some such.
It was assumed *they* had no intention of dying if they could help
it, so the idea was to cooperate and put the plane down wherever
they wanted it down, then hope ground forces could negotiate the
passengers' freedom or if necessary overpower the hijackers with
SWAT teams.

Of course, by that time the administration had warnings that
hijackers could well intend a suicide attack, but it didn't
pass those warnings on to the airlines.
Post by Bobby D. Bryant
I think in the post-911 world a small group of hijackers armed only with
small blades would find themselves dismembered alive. But up until that
day we saw things differently.
Precisely. Indeed, passengers promptly pounced on the poor slob
with the shoe bombs a couple of months later. And now pilots are
in the process of being armed and air marshals being trained to
subdue anybody who threatens a flight.
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